Combat Diver

[Sdiver]

Here's a question that I've had bouncing around in my knoggin for awhile.

Why don't all SF go through the Combat Diver program going through the pipeline. I know SEALs and Recon do it for their mission. But PJs and CCTs go through the program as part of their training.

Is it because of number of avalible slots? Which group you're going to be assinged to?

Just courious.

[Team Sergeant]

Originally Posted by Sdiver

Here's a question that I've had bouncing around in my knoggin for awhile.

Why don't all SF go through the Combat Diver program going through the pipeline. I know SEALs and Recon do it for their mission. But PJs and CCTs go through the program as part of their training.

Is it because of number of avalible slots? Which group you're going to be assinged to?

Just courious.

First Infantry and now you're comparing Special Forces to PJ's? We must be failing to communicate here!

Before I (or anyone else) answers your question tell me what PJ’s and CCT primary missions are….. Same goes for SEALS. Then I’ll be more than happy to answer your questions…..

Team Sergeant

[Sdiver]

Originally Posted by Team Sergeant

First Infantry and now you're comparing Special Forces to PJ's? We must be failing to communicate here!

Before I (or anyone else) answers your question tell me what PJ’s and CCT primary missions are….. Same goes for SEALS. Then I’ll be more than happy to answer your questions…..

Team Sergeant

OK.....Primary missions.

SEALs....playing beach vollyball, having good looking hair, clearing UW obstacles/mines, beach recon for landings, infiltration to take out bad guys.

Recon....clearing UW obstacles/mines, recon for beach landings for which ever Marine Division they're assinged to (at least that's what I was told by an old roommate of mine), having good looking hair (if any), taking out the bad guys thing.

CCTs....to get in by any way to set up airfields and provide CAS, having that good looking hair thing too.

PJs....having REALLY good looking hair, going to EVERY gentelmens club in the area, getting REALLY good places to sleep while deployed, getting REALLY good food while deployed, having lots and lots of care packages sent to them while they're deployed and going to the PX/AFFES every 2 hours to get milk to wash down all the cookies and brownies that were sent in the care packages, watching loads and loads of first run movies while on deployment, having REALLY good looking hair, (wait I already said that), then there's the thing about going in and getting downed pilots by whatever means necessary, (when they're not on crew rest).

TS...trust me. I was by NO means comparing SF to PJs, (although you know I do have a personal bias for PJs ).

******Just an example here******
Just was wondering if a situation were required that the only way into an AO was by UW and there were say, 3 teams/ODAs with the same group and just a few from each team were Combat Diver qualed. Are those divers then pulled from thier respected teams to make up that team/ODA?

[QRQ 30]

Why don't all SF go through the Combat Diver program going through the pipeline.

When was the last time a team was inserted by SCUBA?

SCUBA is not a primary skill.

If everything that SF can and may do is included in the pipeline we would never have any SF Qualified graduates.

SEALS belong in the water.

Finally, yes occasionally composite teams are formed for special missions.

[Trip_Wire (RIP)]

Originally Posted by QRQ 30

When was the last time a team was inserted by SCUBA?

SCUBA is not a primary skill.

If everything that SF can and may do is included in the pipeline we would never have any SF Qualified graduates.

SEALS belong in the water.

Finally, yes occasionally composite teams are formed for special missions.

I agree with both you and TR on this! That said, it seems to me just a few years ago there wass a move to have both SF and the Rangers to turn in all rebreathers and other SCUBA gear and give the missions that required UW work over to the SEALs. As I recall some in the 2nd Rangers did turn in their gear.

I for one would hate to see this happen for many reasons. Also, I can see the use of this equipment for other missions not involving inflirt. Bridges and Dams come to mind in DA type actions.

I should have posted the link to James Kennedy here for those who would appreciate the heritage of the early guys.

http://www.denverpost.com/obituaries/ci_13612910

[The Reaper]

1. UWO is not a mission in and of itself.

2. It is one of several infiltration techniques, and has not been used much lately.

3. There has been so little requirement for it that a few years ago, we went down to one UWO trained ODA per Battalion.

4. Not everyone in SF can swim well enough to be CDQC qualified. Look at the numbers of PJs. They are less than 10% of the number of SF personnel. If we lost the 50% (or likely more) SF personnel who do not swim well enough to be CDQ, who were otherwise qualified, we would be killing ourselves to meet a requirement which is just aniother way to get to the target and start the real mission. As far as that goes, if we required all SF personnel to make it through the gates of Infantry, Airborne, Ranger, SFQC, Language, SERE, MFF, CDQC, Dive Supe, DMT, six SF MOSes, SFARTAEC, SOTIC, etc., we could spend 5 years in qualification training and wash out 90% of all SF personnel.

5. The key is deciding what skills are critical for everyone to have, what are essential to have someone on each team qualified in, and what a few teams (or people) per battalion need to know.

TR

[QRQ 30]

TR: Speak of a double whammy. Apparently we think on the same frequency.

[LongWire]

Originally Posted by Sdiver

PJs....having REALLY good looking hair, going to EVERY gentelmens club in the area, getting REALLY good places to sleep while deployed, getting REALLY good food while deployed, having lots and lots of care packages sent to them while they're deployed and going to the PX/AFFES every 2 hours to get milk to wash down all the cookies and brownies that were sent in the care packages, watching loads and loads of first run movies while on deployment, having REALLY good looking hair, (wait I already said that), then there's the thing about going in and getting downed pilots by whatever means necessary, (when they're not on crew rest).

You forgot taking up all the seats in the Helo just to watch us get off do our thing and get back on!!!!!

In my 19 yrs, give me guys that can swim comfortably with their bdu's and web gear, and that would cover about 90% of the stuff that I have come across for me needing to swim in the first place. Polarized statement? Maybe.

By comparison, the last gig that I worked doing FID with Seals attached, We were working flat range drills (teaching jundi how to shoot), if I turned my back on the Seals for more than 5 mins, I would have to go back and police up the Sand Angel Jundis from them. Give those Seals a hose and every event has the potential to be Hell Week. Mind you this was from a Career Seal E-6 with 20ys in............

Thats not to say that all Career Seals are bad one's, but from what I've seen it takes at least 18 yrs for those guys to get High School out of their system, if they ever do. MHO........

Had the great pleasure of serving 24 months on one particular ODA that had been recently just another ruck team. Company commander was tasked by BN to select an ODA to work with US Marines in Maritime Ops. So off we went to Oceanside California, camp Pendleton and participated in the USMC Coxswain Cource, excellent instruction, tough PT, lots of swimming. Enjoyed every minute of it. Asked if SEALS ever participated, USMC NCOIC said they were banned, too many problems. Marines liked working with Army more than any other agency.

Marines understand infantry tactics as well. Because of our ODA success later, several Marines were able to attend the US Army Ranger Course. While in ANCOC/O&I, I saw one of "our" Marines in the 18C cource.

WD

p.s., It seemed that rucking using the same muscles as finning, hip flexors. With a little coaching from another dive team in BN, we all became fairly good swimmers. Never missed a day of PT in the pool.

[exsquid]

From what I heard, helo cast & rubber ducks will be included in the new POI. Good thing I went to Cast Master while in the Navy. Blitzzz, in the USN we called your configuration a Kangaroo Duck or K Duck.

x/S

[Pete]

Originally Posted by Sdiver

I know SEALs and Recon do it for their mission

Were you talking about the Marine Force Recon companies or the Recon Battalions? Even in the Marines the Recon units have different missions, training requirements and schooling requirements.

Of course I'm assuming they haven't done away with them since the last time we hung out together.

Pete

[Sdiver]

Originally Posted by Pete

Were you talking about the Marine Force Recon companies or the Recon Battalions? Even in the Marines the Recon units have different missions, training requirements and schooling requirements.

Of course I'm assuming they haven't done away with them since the last time we hung out together.

Pete

Pete....Marine Force is who(m) I was refering to.


TR & QRQ.....Thank you for clearing that up.

I had a feeling that it might have something to do with the amount of training (time wise), but the numbers never crossed my mind.

Thanks.

[Razor]

Not only initial training, but currency training would kill you. I wasn't on an MFF or Dive team, but I'm sure the guys here that were can tell you how often they had to pass up team training in the woods or on a range because they had to go do an MFF or dive requal for a week or so. And that is with only one of those specialties. When you have to maintain proficiency in diving, MFF, trauma care and technical climbing, I don't know how PJs get any time to train anything else.

[Texas18D]

Originally Posted by Sdiver

Here's a question that I've had bouncing around in my knoggin for awhile.

Why don't all SF go through the Combat Diver program going through the pipeline. I know SEALs and Recon do it for their mission. But PJs and CCTs go through the program as part of their training.

Is it because of number of avalible slots? Which group you're going to be assinged to?

Just courious.

The army mostly fights on land. It changes our priorities a bit.