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Old 04-23-2014, 09:14   #1
The Reaper
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College After SOF: A Rant

Great rant.

I was shocked at how little of service counts toward educational credits.

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College After SOF: A Rant

by Blake Miles * April 21, 2014 * Transition Advice * Comments (0) * 650

http://transitionhero.com/4493/college-sof-rant/


So here I am sitting in the office of my business department counselor, discussing my degree path and time to completion.

I started college courses full-time during the Fall of 2011. As it stands right now, I'm not able to graduate until Spring of 2015. Based on total credits transferred from the military and the classes I've already taken, I currently have a grand total of 141 credits completed. Only three of my military credit hours transferred to my bachelors degree.

I remembered why my blood pressure spikes every time I sit in the counselor's office.

I brush aside the gnawing feeling that I'm wasting my time with what I equate to grinding my face on the pavement in order to prove that I am capable of grinding my face on pavement.

I'm not sure how many times I've heard the variation on the following phrase: "Just knock out the degree. Employers only want to see that you have the determination to make it through the college system."

Right. Determination... blood pressure rising again.

I've heard of this 'determination' thing. That's sort of like when you volunteer to jump out of planes, and physically destroy your body for extended periods of time in order to prove your worth and become a member of a small team? This sounds intriguing. I would love to hear more. Are there any brochures or pamphlets I could read?

Fuck. Me. Running. I need to get my mind back to the counselors office. Need to focus.

So I have approximately 10 classes left that I need to take. She begins going through the list so I can determine which time slot and day would be the best to take.

She informs me that I will need to complete at least three credit hours of a foreign language.

I agree that taking a foreign language should be a requirement for any degree. It's an excellent tool to have in your tool box, and learning how to learn another language is an even greater skill. Fortunately, I know all of this because I've been through language training.

Now, for those who don't know, all Special Forces soldiers are required to attend language and cultural training for their area of operations. I learned Tagalog, the language of the Philippines, while attending the John F. Kennedy Special Warfare Center and School. Classes began at 0900 and typically ran through 1630, minus lunch time. Classes were five times a day... Tagalog was a six month course. This comes out to roughly 845 hours of classroom time.

Apparently, my credits as transferred awarded me three credit hours for this training. Unfortunately, they were labeled as a "Military Undistributed Credit." In other words, those credits didn't mean shit in the eyes of the school, particularly for waiving a language requirement.

My blood pressure starts approaching David Banner-like levels.

I ask the counselor (who is genuinely trying to help me out), "Is there any way I can have that language requirement waived?" I keep my well-developed mask of indifference affixed to my face in an attempt to avoid showing a glimpse of the general-purpose rage that is building inside me.

She explains that I'll need to get a transcript or course description and plead my case to the business department chair. Ok - another hoop to jump through. I move on.

She then comes to the required course titled "International Communications." The class description reads as follows: "This course examines international communication, global business etiquette, and it teaches cultural sensitivity and awareness based on the study of the interfaces of language, culture, and communication."

She reads this out loud just for my information, not knowing that with each word, the cynical part of my brain is doing a serious 'ROFL,' while the analytical part of my brain is calculating which objects in my immediate vicinity would break into the most pieces the quickest.

I let out a little chuckle. As she looks at me inquisitively, I calmly attempt to explain the nuances of the Army Special Forces job in 30 words or less, and attempt to convince her that the description she just read is nearly a word for word regurgitation of one component of the job I held in the military. She responds with a vacant stare, which seems to say, 'Ok, what do you want me to do about it?'

I know she's just doing her job and trying to help me. I completely understand that the average civilian has neither the understanding nor the inclination to appreciate (in the literal sense) what certain military jobs entail. I get that. This knowledge didn't make my blood pressure go down, though.

"Same thing. You'll need to get a course description and plead your case. But I can tell you, this class is important and it's only taught in the Fall semester," she tells me flatly. "It's less likely that you'll be able to get this one waived."

"Alright." I breathe calmly, keeping the adrenaline from spiking. "What else is there?"

Market research... recruiting doesn't count apparently.

A business writing class... ugh. My heart.

A creative writing class... ugh. My uterus.

Awesome. Whatever. I went into autopilot and agreed with whatever else needed to be done. I thank her for her time and advice on how to get out of the classes I know I've already taken.

As I walk out of the office, I can't help but think of all the other veterans who just got fed up with this sort of thing, only to walk away from school and never come back. There is a strong sense of despair that begins to take hold when you realize that what was once a major part of your life no longer has any tangible value, aside from the experience itself.

Here's a message for our educators and employers in this country: You want to help our nations veterans? Maybe some of our training is actually more valuable than time spent in your classrooms. Maybe my entire military career, along with the 24 months I spent in training in addition to the seven years afterwards, should translate to more than 33 credit hours.

Here's a direct message (from the heart) to the American Council on Education: Fuck you guys. Seriously. I don't know if money is your motivation, or if you don't think any military training is as strenuous as the college classroom, or if you simply don't like the military. Whatever the case may be, your shit is broken and it needs to be fixed. I really hope someone from ACE actually reads this.

For all the folks out there who believe that the purpose of college should be to prove to employers that you have the determination necessary to graduate: If the only purpose of college education is to prove that someone is capable of dedication, there are far cheaper methods that don't take four years and thousands of dollars to accomplish that task. The Latin root of the word education is 'duco', which means to lead or guide - not jump through a hoop like a trained dolphin.

I'm not sure how to best conclude this post, so I'll try to keep it simple. There is plenty of anger in the veteran community, though most of us don't know why or where it is actually directed. Often, the anger is turned inwards or onto those whom we love the most. I've been searching for the source of this anger for a while now, and I know I've identified at least a few. This is one of those sources.

We're thanked for our service. We're looked up to for our accomplishments. We're praised for our sacrifices. But deep down, what we're looking for the most is to be valued for our experiences and abilities.

When it's assumed that the blood, sweat, and time we've already spent in pursuit of a certain skill or knowledge is not on par with time spent by someone sitting in an air conditioned classroom learning the same skill, the implied lesson is that our blood and sweat is less valuable.

When we're told that we just need to play the game to earn a piece of paper in order for employers to value our life experience, the implied lesson is that a piece of paper is more valuable than volunteering to miss out on the birth of our children, seeing our brothers killed in foreign lands, or having our bodies broken.

I recognize the value of a college education. I enjoy the process of learning immensely. But I also value life experience. Most importantly, I know without a doubt that life experience is infinitely more valuable than skills learned in the classroom. I only wish that certain civilians in positions of power believed this as well.

UPDATE: It turns out that the military has recently made available a new valuation system to recommend credits for military training. The Joint Service Transcript website is available here: www.JST.DODED.mil. I did a walk-through of using it on our Transition Heroes website.

This would've been nice to know a while ago and I hope it helps me a bit in regards to giving me more credit hours in college. That said, my time in the SFQC is valued at 28 credit hours. SERE school is worth a whopping one credit hour for "Survival Skills/Outdoor Pursuits." Cynical mind doing a 'ROFL' again.
I personally value SERE school as worth an infinite amount of credit hours. I got more in that month than I could have possibly received from any classroom in a lifetime, but then again, what the hell do I know?
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Old 04-23-2014, 09:28   #2
sinjefe
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Colleges are businesses. It isn't in their financial interests to give military credit.

Just the way it is.

Went through the same thing when I was getting prepared for retirement in '06 and wanted to finish my BA.

Took a bunch of CLEPs (which the college discouraged me from doing because "some people need face to face instruction"). CLEPs did more for me than military experience.
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Old 04-23-2014, 10:07   #3
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I went back to school last year and have had a 100% different experience. Granted, I had a previous degree, but the department head in my major (film) worked with me to grant credits and waive certain requirements, such as language. He has allowed work I have done on film productions to count towards my degree. My department head is also prior service. He told me this was the least he could do for me after my service to the country. Everyone of my instructors has thanked me for my service and my fellow students have all been courteous and respectful. In fact, they go out of their way to ask for my prospective and view on subjects. This is probably the exception versus the norm.
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Old 04-23-2014, 10:13   #4
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Originally Posted by TrapperFrank View Post
I went back to school last year and have had a 100% different experience. Granted, I had a previous degree, but the department head in my major (film) worked with me to grant credits and waive certain requirements, such as language. He has allowed work I have done on film productions to count towards my degree. My department head is also prior service. He told me this was the least he could do for me after my service to the country. Everyone of my instructors has thanked me for my service and my fellow students have all been courteous and respectful. In fact, they go out of their way to ask for my prospective and view on subjects. This is probably the exception versus the norm.
Damn! That's awesome! As for me, being in industrial design means I have to spend time in the art department, which is the equivalent of "Tho I walk through the valley of the shadow..."
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Old 04-23-2014, 10:40   #5
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My experience is very similar to the account in Reaper's post. I have a gaggle of credits from a variety of community colleges attended where ever I was stationed. After retiring, I rededicated myself to finally finishing my degree only to find that many of my previous credits were not accepted at this school and that I did not get much for my military training.
Even with all my electronics and avionics training, little would be credited toward even an electronics degree because the training was so long ago; even though I was had to maintain proficiency and was active in that field until 2005.

The following is especially familiar:

Quote:
She then comes to the required course titled "International Communications." The class description reads as follows: "This course examines international communication, global business etiquette, and it teaches cultural sensitivity and awareness based on the study of the interfaces of language, culture, and communication."
All degrees require a similar course that they would not waive for me. It was a PC course designed to teach students senstivitiy and cultural awareness.
I tried to make the case that I have worked for, supervised, worked along side people from many cultures and ethnicities should qualify for a waiver.

I was told that the course could not be waived.

It was very frustrating but Ill finish it any way. Often, I do question why as I'd rather spend the time with my sons or watch a movie with my wife after tehy go to bed.

I still hold the idea that a degree will be necessary if try to work any where else though I don't believe that it should be.

EDIT: My training and time as an instructor was of the most benefit as they gave me credit for an English, Public Speaking, and anther class I can't remember right now.

EDIT 2: A Duffelblog entry that too accurately describes my experience of trying to go to school while on active duty: LINK
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Old 04-23-2014, 11:58   #6
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Depends on the school

Depends on the school.

I finally went back to school to get an Associates in Arts degree from Fayetteville Technical Community College. The AA is 65 credit hours. I had gone to the same school back when it was under the quarter system and known as FTI. Got 19 credit hours which I was informed didn't count because it was under the quarter system.

I had taken all the CLEP tests (30 hrs) so I took my records out to the FTCC office out at Ft Bragg to have them evaluated.

All told I ended up with something around 89 hours - BUT - sliding everything into the "required" slots I required 5 classes, 2 freshman intro classes, 2 science with labs and a math class. So I'll get the AA with something around 109 CHs.

My daughter graduated from FTCC last spring with a Associates in Business and decided to go to Methodist College to get her Bachelor's Degree. Methodist dropped half her classes and started her out as a sophomore.

There is an agreement in NC between Community Colleges and State Colleges about credit hours. My 65 CHs will slide right over to Fayetteville State. It then becomes how much of my 109 CHs slides into the 130 CHs required for a Bachelor's Degree. Almost all colleges require a person to take at least 25% of your credits with them to get their degree.

Just an example an old retired fart will get credit for PED-110 Fit and Well for Life (2 CH), PED-125 Self Defense Beginning (1 CH), PED-169 Orienteering (1 CH) and PED-172 Outdoor Living (2CH). That's 6 CHs but most programs will say something like "Take 1 CH from the PED Field".

But this thread reminds me I need to run back over to Ft Bragg FTCC and kick them again about the language credit.

Edited to add - when I started this and the adviser had totaled my credits I asked what degree would get me the Associates Degree with the least required classes. Any other degree would have required more classes concentrated in that field of study.

Edit - Edit to add - You can also get credit for BUS-135, 137, 234, 253 & 255 (15 CH); CJC 193 & 212 (6 CH); POL 220 and EPT-220 (3 CH each) plus a bunch of singles here and there.
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Old 05-07-2014, 19:36   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sinjefe View Post
Colleges are businesses. It isn't in their financial interests to give military credit.
Exactly.

I was going to try and use several military courses that I completed towards a degree in the Liberal Arts and was only able to use them for one quarter of physical education.

And by the way, I learned far more about myself, people, cultural and physical geography, etc. in the military than I ever learned in a college classroom.

Last edited by mojaveman; 05-11-2014 at 22:04.
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Old 04-23-2014, 12:40   #8
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Blake is 1000%. I'm went through this with my university last year. I gave up as seeing it more as a way of them just sucking off the tit of the system. They want the free G.I. Bill money. One thing that I feel needs to be fixed is the USASFC and USAJFKSWCS to have the SWCS Dept of Ed get with American Council on Education and get credit to guys for what SWCS Teaches. Between SFQC, Language Course, Special Skills course, as in ASOT in creative writing class. Because all that have gone to ASOT that's a full college creative writing class. Just as the new ANCOC (SLC) classes in concept writing to basic OPORD can be the Business Writing glass. Ok a stretch maybe, but the point it there. The DoD doesn't do justice towards how much of what we are taught in courses and what college course credit we get for them. Another example is guys that become drill sergeant or SWC Instructors, only 1 credit for the schooling. DoD needs to really look at fixing this. SWC (JFK) Ed needs to try to get more. Also heard that if you did DLI or SWC Language training, request your language transcript from DLI. You get more than just 1 credit for your 450+ hours or 9-430 a day language training. A SF guy should get at least one semester waved of foreign language training.
Yes the collegiate system is all about making money. DoD isn't about helping us out.
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Old 04-23-2014, 12:48   #9
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FTCC & ITC

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Originally Posted by MtnGoat View Post
.... Another example is guys that become drill sergeant or SWC Instructors, only 1 credit for the schooling. .....
ITC at FTCC will get you 3 Credit Hours of Public Speaking (The required one). Man, I really did not want to have to take the speech class at FTCC and dug deep way into the bottom of my Army box to find the ITC diploma.
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Old 04-23-2014, 12:55   #10
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I Man, I really did not want to have to take the speech class at FTCC and dug deep way into the bottom of my Army box to find the ITC diploma.
I was so relieved when told that I did not have to take that class....It at least saved the professor from hearing a speech from me titled, "This is fvcking bullshit."....
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Old 04-23-2014, 13:14   #11
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Do not go to the main campus

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Talk to fayettville community college. They have a special program for 18x, 38 and 37 seris MOS through SWC. Long story short you almost have an AA degree through them and depending on your MOS depends on what field. ........
Do not go to the main campus - go to the FTCC campus (old kids school next to the FORSCOM HQ) out at Ft Bragg and see the retired CSM counselor. Bring everything, sealed transcripts from High School, all the single class transcripts you took here and there, 214, -1, every diploma & ITC .

I did that on was only 5 classes short of my AA - but needed 16.25 credits at FTCC. Just try and find a class that gives you .25 credit hour.

Just a side note - looked at Brush Okie's degree link - it lines up real well with what you'll get after having your records looked at out at Ft Bragg. Those 2 PED classes are in there.
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Old 04-23-2014, 13:29   #12
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Blake comes across to me as a whiner who thinks the world revolves around him.
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Old 04-23-2014, 15:03   #13
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American Military University used my language time at SWC to cover all my foreign language credits.
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Old 04-23-2014, 15:44   #14
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Blake comes across to me as a whiner who thinks the world revolves around him.
Unfortunately, I have to agree that this article doesn't give a favorable impression. The cursing and talk about blood pressure rising isn't productive. And given the edit at the bottom of his article, it looks like he didn't do his research and see that the military has tried to facilitate getting colleges to recogize our training. But ultimately, I think it's unrealistic to expect a college to understand all the different military training and automatically waive its requirements based on the student's description of what he did.

(I'm not surprised that American Military University or those around Fayetteville are more apt to recognize your military training. But a random college with limited affiliation with the military -- don't expect much.)

He wrote, "That said, my time in the SFQC is valued at 28 credit hours." That's roughly a year of college. In my opinion, that's not bad for 24 months of military training (the time he said he was in the Q course).

(I went to college before SFQC. I didn't ask, but I don't think SWCC would have allowed me to use my college credits to waive any of its requirements. I think that conversation with my TAC would have been a bit less friendly than Blake's conversation with his college advisor.)

Last edited by Leozinho; 04-23-2014 at 15:47.
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Old 04-23-2014, 19:57   #15
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Blake comes across to me as a whiner who thinks the world revolves around him.
I wrote the article.. I understand where guys are coming from saying I sound like a whiner.

I didn't write the article for the sympathy as a 'woe is me' thing. I'm drawing attention to an issue that obviously strikes a nerve with a lot of military veterans... and I did do my research as I wrote the article... but already had the article written as I learned more options I had at my disposal. I felt it was important to post as is.

Up until the other day, I had never heard of the Joint Service Transcript. I learned from a buddy about arguing for getting classes accepted. I've picked up a lot of good advice after the article was posted. Bottom line -- the system is far more difficult than it needs to be. I understand the 'play the game' argument, but most guys simply get fed up after years of the military 'game' and say fuck this. Then they end up drinking themselves stupid and eating pills from the VA rather than driving forward towards a degree.

I'm close to graduating at this point, so I don't have any illusions of helping myself in all of this. If I can help guys down the road avoid classes they're already proficient in so they can get into the real world quicker, I'll again feel like I accomplished something with this article...

Trust me, I'm not easily angered or frustrated, and I don't whine in person. I wouldn't have made it through the X-ray program if I was easily angered, frustrated, or a bitching crybaby. This topic has been a sore spot with me because I recognize the glaring flaws in it and it is simply the first fight I've felt worth fighting in a long time.

If you don't agree with my assessment, so be it. I chose to speak up about it and the emotion I injected into the article seems to have gotten attention on the topic.

If we were talking about the topic in the teamroom would you tell me to quit whining and play the game or would you see value in working towards changing the game?
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