M9 Issues

[SERPENT5XX]

Gentlemen,

This might start a controversy but I need to ask. (My wife claims I enjoy controversy)

Is or has anyone else in the SF community had issues with their M9’s?

I know most of you out there are familiar with the magazine problems but this has to do with the locking blocks breaking.

I have seen problems with the locking blocks for years. At one time it was just a mild irritation. I thought that because my ODA was a CQB Team and that we shot so much more pistol that we just tore the guns up faster than the other Teams. Now that I have had the misfortune of being moved to a staff position I have realized it is a much larger problem. In fairness, Teams across the board shoot much more due to GWOT, SFAUC, attendance of civilian shooting schools like Mid-South Institute, and an increased emphasis on missions where the M9 is the primary or only weapon carried or at least the weapon most accessible. Most of the time when a block broke the 18B would just swap out the block and the guy will get back to training. That is how we usually operated. We just wanted to get back to training. Lately it has become such a frequent and wide spread occurrence that it can no longer be ignored or handled as a work around. The problem is that there is really no long-term documented problem at levels that can affect this problem. At least that is the story we are being told.

What am I talking about as far as round count? Probably any where between 300 to 1,000 rounds fired per day depending on the training event. Depending on the training event it could be a sustained 5 to 10 days of that round count. This event might be done several times a year. So on the low side we are talking about 10,000 rounds a year through a gun and on the high side 50,000 a year. I have heard that the factory acknowledged life span of the M9 is 10,000 round. If this were true, you would think that someone would realize we could use a more durable gun.

I am interested if any of you have observed this same problem or has the desert heat finally baked my brain.

Your comments are encouraged.

Thanks!

SERPENT5XX

[Roguish Lawyer]

[mffjm8509]

I've encounted the same problem with locking blocks on the M9.

When we incorperated marksmanship training into Phase II of the Qcourse we drew a couple of hundred M9s from the SWC Armsroom. This is where I saw the majority of the problem. I doubt they keep round counts on the pistols, at least we never turned a round count into them.

Its happened twice on my team in the past year as well. We keep a couple of extras in the repair kit now, and I'm trying to get them all replaced w/new barrels prior to deployment.

There are a couple of locking blocks out there, so be careful what you order. About 10 years ago Beretta developed a new block with a taperd flangethat is supposed to last longer. The ones in our kits are still the early models.

mp

[Tuukka]

Yes, the Berettas over here have exhibited the same problem, thats a weak link in the design.

[shadowflyer]

We have seen the same thing with the M9's here at 20th GRP as well. The armorers just change em out and bam ready to go again for another 5k rounds or so.

[mffjm8509]

Thats a good point, and why we keep a few in the tool box. You can easily swap the parts and continue shooting and turn in a 2406 for maintenance records later. The locking block is definately the weakest link, and the pistol should outlast this part signifigantly.

mp

Originally Posted by shadowflyer

We have seen the same thing with the M9's here at 20th GRP as well. The armorers just change em out and bam ready to go again for another 5k rounds or so.

[Chindo18Z]

Greetings Serpent: I have posted or responded to similar threads on The High Road & The Firing Line firearms bulletin boards. Problems with my unit's M9s got me searching those internet boards for precisely your reasons a coupla years ago.

In a nutshell, you are not dreaming. The M9s are boat anchors. Mostly locking block failures; sometimes trigger return springs. During the late 80s / early 90s (when we didn't shoot them a lot), they held together. Once we turned up the round count, the emperor had no clothes. Seen 'em start to fail as early as 2500-4000 rounds.

Here is a representative response I wrote for a High Road thread. The original poster wanted to know who had ACTUALLY seen Beretta failures vs. passing around choking doberman stories. My reponse:

"Problems w/ My Beretta (M9):

I have had a locking block lug shear off in my weapon while firing (completely jammed the weapon; required trip to armorer's vise and hand tools to disassemble and remove). This occurred during CQB type training course in 2000.

I have had a trigger return spring break while firing, disabling trigger function. This occurred 2001.

I have replaced a second locking block on a second M9 after discovering crack (about 40% thru lug) while performing weapon maintenance after firing. 2001

Problems w/ Others' Berettas (also M9s):

I observed the trigger return spring on my boss's M9 break during range trainup for Afghanistan. He was amazed that the trigger no longer made the gun go boom. Occurred 2001.

I have had one of my team member's M9 go down due to broken locking block while standing in the middle of nowhere (expedient firing range) in Bosnia. This was disconcerting to him because he was now the only dude in sight without a working weapon. We laughed at him...but it wasn't really funny. 1998.

I have observed another team member's M9 drop the trigger return spring into the dirt while practicing transition drills. To be fair, his right grip panel had become loose and he didn't notice until he drew and weapon failed to fire. Occurred 1999. During the same range session, another NCO's M9 suffered from having the right decocking lever (an aluminum casting) shear off (probably from being chunked into a pile of LBV and other gear while holstered in the owner's assault vest).

I have seen 2 broken locking blocks at remote detachment firebases in Afghanistan (two different locations). 2002.

I once counted forty-seven (47) broken locking blocks (collected in a little pile) produced by the 83 assigned weapons in my unit during a 12 month period (Oct 99-Oct 00). We were using the pistols quite a bit...

On the Other Hand:

I recently watched about 20+ soldiers conduct M9 familiarization drills using the same four range weapons for everyone. Each man fired between 50 and 100 rds. All weapons functioned without a stutter.

I once deliberately put 850+ rds thru my M9 without benefit of additonal oil or cleaning (other than applying a shaving brush to knock of the sand) just to see if I could get that puppy to jam. It didn't...but it started to cycle sluggishly. At that point, I field stripped it on the range during lunch hour, did a modicum of cleaning with a brush and a rag, added some CLP, and was back to firing after lunch. This was a CQB type training course involving a lot of movement thru a range surface made of sand.

I carry a Beretta because I have to. It's issued. I also own one so that I can practice on my own time with the same type weapon I am issued.

Personally Observed Problems Other Pistols (Just to be Fair):

In 1978, the plunger tube on my GI 1911A1 started to work loose but never actually interfered with function. Armorer repaired it.

In 1983, I had the firing pin stop on another GI 1911A1 completely break in half while firing (which of course disabled the weapon). I dropped a new one in (spare parts in range kit) after re-seating the firing pin/firing pin spring and was good to go.

I also saw another 1911A1 dropped from the back of a moving 2.5 ton truck (out of an unfastened shoulder holster). The pistol landed on a clay tank trail and was promptly run over by the back set of wheels (the deuce and a half was backing up). The owner, a might bit concerned, policed up the weapon, knocked the clay and sand off, walked over to the firing line, and loaded her up. She fired without a hitch and continued to fire accurately for the next 2 weeks of training. If you ever plan on running over your weapon, I heartily endorse a steel frame over an aluminum one .

Not a Pistol, But:

I have had the operating rod break clean thru on an AK-47 (right behind the gas piston). Really."
__________________
Figure the Odds...

BTW: The 1911 vignettes happened out at Mott Lake (back in the day).

SFAUC sustainment will continue to kill our Berettas until we get what we need.

Have you read the message delineating requirements for the new SOF SCP/CCP? Ding Dong... the witch is dead (hopefully).

HK USP/C good. SIG 220 good. Custom 1911 very good. All good. M9 bad. Please God, don't let them screw this up...

I generally avoid Immediate Argument Drills concerning the M9 (but you're a Group guy and you asked ). Some people love theirs. I'm happy for them. Then again, some folks just don't know what they don't know...

[Roguish Lawyer]

Team Sergeant:

Your thoughts?

[Sinister]

Hah! I gotta remember that!

[jatx]

I have some experience with the USP Compact. In one day of training last year, I ran about 400 rounds through mine and experienced multiple malfunctions. The slide would not return to full battery after being released on several occasions (and I wasn't just thumbling the slide release). That was easily solved by smacking the rear of the slide. Then, with each of my four magazines, I experienced double feeds. Finally, I experienced multiple extraction problems, with the spent casings sometimes rotating 180 degrees and getting stuck in the chamber, sometimes flying straight backward and leaving a bloody mark on my forehead.

I walked off the range and called it a day when the rear sight worked loose. The gun was brand new (<1000 rounds), clean, and I was shooting plain old 230 gr. Winchester hardball. Not sure I'd want to see you guys depending on this one, either, FWIW. Oh, and the 8 lbs. "single action" trigger pull isn't exactly a winner, either...

[The Reaper]

Team Sergeant!!!

Tr

[shadowflyer]

I have a USP Compact .40 and I have put about 10-15k rounds through it with only 1 witnessed malfunction. I have put 500-1000 rounds through it in one day training sessions with no issues. I clean it religiously and have had no issues with it .....save the one malfunction and I attributed that to crappy ammo as I switched ammo and I have not had any issues since.

Just My .02 cents worth.

JJ

Originally Posted by jatx

I have some experience with the USP Compact. In one day of training last year, I ran about 400 rounds through mine and experienced multiple malfunctions. The slide would not return to full battery after being released on several occasions (and I wasn't just thumbling the slide release). That was easily solved by smacking the rear of the slide. Then, with each of my four magazines, I experienced double feeds. Finally, I experienced multiple extraction problems, with the spent casings sometimes rotating 180 degrees and getting stuck in the chamber, sometimes flying straight backward and leaving a bloody mark on my forehead.

I walked off the range and called it a day when the rear sight worked loose. The gun was brand new (<1000 rounds), clean, and I was shooting plain old 230 gr. Winchester hardball. Not sure I'd want to see you guys depending on this one, either, FWIW. Oh, and the 8 lbs. "single action" trigger pull isn't exactly a winner, either...

[Chindo18Z]

Sinister: PSYWAR, we at the AMU are going to bring the six M1911"A2" pistols we have been prototyping for USASOC to Tampa on the 7th of December.

The common line is a Caspian light-rail frame, stainless steel match barrel and bushing, extended thumb safety, lanyard loop, flared loading well, and Ed Brown beavertail...

The options include one of five different suppressors, operator-option sight (adjustable Novak Combat with glow-in-the-dark/day fiber optic dots, or Bo-Mar with the same options -- they quick-fit in the dove-tail); different finishes (Bear Coat; NP-3; some other different ones, between black, grey, and coyote); internal or external ejector.

Sinister: Some thoughts (from the peanut gallery) on selling your 1911 concept to higher...

1. Don't make the mistake of getting lost in the weeds over tricked out guns.
1-10th SFG did this and wound up not getting anything. Every SME in every Group has an opinion; debating Kimber vs. Springfield vs. Colt vs. Wilson vs. Caspian will just get the project derailed. Don't get locked into a death spiral over brand loyalty or special feature minutia.

2. Remember that the real bottom line is...THE BOTTOM LINE $. If AMU can produce & support (maintenance-wise) enough pistols to equip the force, I'm all for it. Better still, let AMU honcho the specs, then contract the weapon out to firm/s (not necessarily Crane) which can mass produce. You are going to need well over 10,000 weapons to equip USSOCOM units. Every nice to have (but gratuitous) feature will drive the cost up...

3. Remember KISS. The 1911A1 rep was built upon caliber, reliability, durability, user repairability in the field, excellent speed/accuracy of SA first shot, and acceptable combat accuracy. Build a "race gun" and everything will suffer except for caliber & accuracy. Don't build a target pistol. With a .45 ACP 1911A2, accuracy and lethality will take care of themselves. As the Democrats might say (in a different universe): "It's About the Reliability Stupid...".

4. I agree with including Light Rail, Beavertail Safety, Lanyard Loop, and Beveled Magazine Well. Having said that, consider:

Things To Not Include:

a. National Match Barrel and Bushing: NOT. STICK WITH A STOCK STAINLESS BARREL AND STANDARD BUSHING. A well designed 1911A2 of recent manufacture would provide more than acceptable accuracy for 98% of our shooters while staying inside of slop parameters required to ensure absolute reliability in the field. Everyone seems to have forgotten this virtue (which was inherent in the A1). Next thing you know, someone will want to peen the rails, tighten the slide, and do action jobs on all the guns.

A newly manufactured WWII spec gun, with a standard barrel & bushing, decent grips, and some MODERN sights, will put them in the X-ring out to 25 meters. The object is to keep this level of accuracy while retaining the ability for an 18B to replace parts in the field (without gunsmithing) AND ensure reliable cycle of function in all environments and terrain. If you hand me an IPSC game gun to haul over to Absurdistan, I'm probably going to throw it back at you and just take the damn M9.

Before anyone interjects that certain USSOCOM units have a higher accuracy requirement than Group, NSW, STS, 160th, CA, PSYOPS, and RGR RGT...keep in mind that they have in-house assets to build and maintain their guns. We are trying to arrive at a reliable tool which will inhabit the arms rooms and holsters of the average ODA (or USN Platoon). Let's face it...most of our guys are not really pistol competitors, gunsmiths, or handgun afficiondos. When it comes to handguns, most are journeyman as opposed to experts and would as soon read MAXIM as COMBAT HANDGUNS. They regard their weapons as tools and will pretty much do well with whatever is issued (through exceptional training, lots of ammo, repetitious drills, and mindset). Attempting to provide enhanced accuracy, while commendable, is a disservice to a guy who now needs a barrel wrench to disassemble/clear his tightly hand-fitted and sand-filled weapon. Anything which requires Depot or Manufacturer Level maintenance is a detriment to accomplishing the mission. Company Armorers will have neither the skills nor the parts needed to hand-fit new National Match Barrels to mated bushings. Emphasize marksmanship fundamentals (rolled into proper combat firing techniques) in lieu of mechanical improvement to POTENTIAL accuracy.

b. Adjustable Sights: Adjustables are of dubious utility. One more thing to break. Ensure the weapon shoots POA w/ 230 ball. Optional heights for dovetail front sight if different weight bullets become standard. High visibility, low profile, plain black Novaks would suffice. Tritium dots look like railroad flares thru night vision devices. I have read good things about the Novak adjustables w/ tritium but would want to see some serious torture testing before committing to them.

c. Extended thumb safety: DON'T GO THERE. I've carried cocked and locked 1911s for almost 30 years (military & civilian concealed, military CQB assault carry, vehicular ops, airborne ops, waterborne ops, winter warfare, desert ops, mountain ops, jungle ops, and countless woodland patrols). I've used most types (if not brands) of holsters throughout this period. Whether wearing a suit coat, driving a car, rolling over the lip of a window frame or roof parapet, crawling through concrete rubble, low crawling across a forest floor, or blasting out of a C-130...extended thumb safeties are a BAD idea. They tend to disengage while in the holster. Ambidexterous extended safties are even worse. The standard safety that JMB put on the gun is fine (with the knurling found on the early model 1911A1s). CQB Operators can reach the OME safety just fine as is (even while wearing NOMEX gloves).

d. External Extractor: WHY? (Besides cheaper for manufacturer). One more place for little gritty things to enter the action. One less thing that can be replaced or tweaked by the operator while deployed. If it ain't broken...leave it alone.

e. Gucci Finish: You could lose a lot of $ cost $ by losing this as an issue. Parkerization worked pretty damn well for 80+ years. If the color coordination of my Gucci Kit is really a concern, spray paint works fine (you should see my raggedy looking Safariland 6004 or my M4A1). If the enemy is close enough to detect the color of my non-concealed holstered weapon, I've got other concerns. The only thing I expect my opponent to see of my 1911 is a large black hole before I kill him. Matte Gray or OD phosphated finish would be fine for all environments (with the obvious exception of needing black sights). Stainless is good, but covered up in gray/OD finish (like SIG 220 or Glock)

f. Alloy Frame: NO. I loathe every extra ounce I am forced to carry. I'm already going to have to carry more ammo weight in .45 rounds and magazines vs. 9mm. However, my gut experience tells me that we (SOF) will wear out aluminum framed guns much earlier than advertised by whomever builds them. I'd say stick with all-steel frame and avoid looking for replacement handguns 10 years from now. I used to carry an all-steel 1911A1 to the field; I'll willingly do it again.

Additionally, overall accuracy will decline for most guys due to the loss of recoil-dampening weight in an alloy gun (especially in compact version).

g. MIM, Cast, Plastic Parts: While we are on the subject, ABSOLUTELY NO MIM OR PLASTIC PARTS. ESPECIALLY EJECTORS, SLIDE STOPS, FIRING PIN STOPS, EXTRACTORS...

h. Front Slide Serrations: Tits on a Boar. Save the $ and lose 'em.

Additional Things to Include:

a. Stippeled Front Strap: YES. Otherwise, everyone is just going to put skate board tape across the bow anyway...

b. Figure out a bomb-proof spring set-up that can handle .45 +P or .45 Super. The latest SNL (as you know) requires this. Make it work without FLGRs and silly-ass shock buffers. Standard bushing.

c. Optional Arched Steel Mainspring Housing. Some of us old farts prefer them

d. Throated & Ported: YES. One of the few justifiable improvements to the original design besides sight replacement. Probably already thought of but I didn't see it listed.

Looking at all that I have written above, I'm essentially describing something like the Springfield TLE. Any good brand will do. Just make sure that it will go bang everytime and anywhere. Keep It Simple Stupid. Functional and Lethal...Not Pretty.

Well, opinions are like you know what and YMMV. I wish you well in getting us a 1911A2. I would really love to resurrect my favorite war-horse but won't cry if the new pistol winds up being an HK or SIG. Good Luck in December!

[Team Sergeant]

Originally Posted by jatx

I have some experience with the USP Compact. In one day of training last year, I ran about 400 rounds through mine and experienced multiple malfunctions. The slide would not return to full battery after being released on several occasions (and I wasn't just thumbling the slide release). That was easily solved by smacking the rear of the slide. Then, with each of my four magazines, I experienced double feeds. Finally, I experienced multiple extraction problems, with the spent casings sometimes rotating 180 degrees and getting stuck in the chamber, sometimes flying straight backward and leaving a bloody mark on my forehead.

I walked off the range and called it a day when the rear sight worked loose. The gun was brand new (<1000 rounds), clean, and I was shooting plain old 230 gr. Winchester hardball. Not sure I'd want to see you guys depending on this one, either, FWIW. Oh, and the 8 lbs. "single action" trigger pull isn't exactly a winner, either...

Jatx,
I’ve yet to hear anyone experience the kinds of problems you seem to have had with a H&K pistol. I can say I’ve never had any of the problems you’ve mentioned, where did you receive your weapons training? I see by your profile you are an investment banker, I was a professional soldier, you think there might be a correlation there? All I own in H&K pistols and would not hesitate to use them in a combat situation.

All you SF AD types, why you guys do not have a better sidearm at the present time is beyond me. Actually I would venture to guess its all about politics, sad but IMO true.

I’m not going to beat a dead horse, the M9 should be thrown in the trash can. Simply the worst pistol ever fielded for SOF in our great history. The only reason we acquired the weapon is it was free and as all the general purpose forces were issued the gun so were we. Its sad we didn’t take a stand then and turn it away.

If I were running the show I would not issue kimbers, too high end and with a high end piece comes a high maintenance cost and down time. Only if every operator was issued 2 kimbers would I even think about it. The other organizations that currently utilize the kimbers can also easily afford the cost and down time.

It’s time to ask Springfield Armory, Colt, Remington, etc to build a weapon for SOF. A pistol that will NOT be marketed for the FBI, LEO’s, etc, an offensive handgun with rails, lights, silencers etc. Why won’t they build one, I’m betting two reasons, money and a litigious society.

TS