Old West Rifle for Wyoming Elk

[fng13]

Gents,

My future father-in-law is planning an Elk hunt to Wyoming and has tasked me with finding him a new rifle.

His specifications:

• Old West style (preferably original)
  
• Black Powder
  
• Scope not necessary

He is very interested in Sharps. I have also suggested 1885 high wall or Springfield trapdoor.

My problem is caliber. In my research I have been looking at .45-70 Government because I can readily find Black Powder Cartridges loaded (Neither he or I reload).

My questions are for you who have had similar trips:

• Would these rifle/caliber match ups serve him well for elk?
  
• Are less than 200 yard shots realistic in Wyoming?
  
• Is there a better rifle/caliber that fits these specs?

I understand he could probably be better served if he or I reloaded but for now lets take that as not an option.


Any help is much appreciated as I am out of my depth in black powder/hunting rifles.

[JJ_BPK]

Finding a rifle/cartage combo that is in current production will be the problem.

BUT There is the Winchester 1895 as used by Teddy Roosevelt. It has been made of late by both Winchester and Browning. The rifle was made in 30.06, 7.62x54R (Russian) and .405 Winchester. Additionally the Savage 1895/99 could be a candidate.

These are late BP early smokeless power rifles that will do the deed.. All capable of 200 yd elk shots.

Good Luck..

[MVP]

FNG13,

I have been shooting Sharps replica's and original and replica Remingtons sonce 1989. Mostly with BP and lead. IMHO the best route for him is the 45-70 becasue you can buy both smokeless and BP ammo and if he ever desires to sell the rifle a 45-70 is much easier to sell that say a 45-110. Since he is looking for a hunting rifle I would recommend he stay with a standard weight barrel and no go looking for a 15lb buffal0 gun. If that is what he truely wants I do have a nice 15lb 50-90 for sale...LOL.

You can get good scopes and poor scopes, the good ones come from RHO and MVA. The RHO is tru to the original Malcolm while the MVA is not. The leatherwood is one of the mediocre/poor ones.

If he wants an original rifle and is not prepared to spend a year's retirement a used military Remington rolling block is a good way to go. They are available in both 45-70 and 50-70. The 45-70 command the higher prices. I prefer the 50-70 Remington military rifle which by the way was used by Buffalo Bill when he was hunting for the Army.

What is the budget?

Sites to look at:

Ammo, Buffalo Arms

Rifles, C. Sharps and Lone Star. I have rifles from both and am very pleased. Lone Star will also take an old beat up military rifle and turn it into a beautiful sporting ridle true to Remington's production in the 1870's.

I would recommend you stay away from the italian guns. There are some problems with their interpretation and customer service is virtually nil, atleast from Pedersoli. The blogs on the BP/Cowboys sites alwasy contain discussions on problems with those guns. I also experinced problems (soft steel/peening) on a couple of Navy Arms (Uberti's IIRC) rollers. The Pedersoli Sharps often lack the ejection capability becasue Uberti used percussion levers instead of the cartridge levers on their guns, minor item but it can make loading one a three-handed operation.

MVP

[craigepo]

I just got back from an elk hunting trip. My experience is that you need to hit elk with a large, fast round, as close to a 105mm howitzer as you can get. 7mm mags, .300 win mags, and .338s are a few of the go-to calibers today.

You also need a very good bullet. I hit an elk a couple years ago straight in the chest, 25 yards, with a 150 grain Sierra GameKing. Put a hole through the lungs the size of a Skoal can. That bull went down, then got up and ran. I shot him next high in the withers. He went down again. I heard him doing the "death rattle" breathing. 20 seconds later, he jumped up and ran again. 3rd shot was quartering away, through both lungs.

Personally, I wouldn't go elk hunting with a caliber unless I could find bullets for the gun like Nosler Accubonds or Barnes Triple Shock. If you hit a bull with a solid lead round or any junk round, that bullet is going to go to crap as soon as you hit a big bone, not hit anything vital, and you are going to end up losing a bull. Stated differently, shooting an elk is a whole different ball game than shooting a deer-sized animal. The bastards just suck up lead, then run like hell into the nastiest mountain terrain you can imagine. Then, if you can find them, you get to quarter them and pack them out.

[HOLLiS]

AS MVP stated.

Reloading for black powder is not difficult and really cost effective. There are lots of choices, as it has been mentioned in rifles and calibers. If you are using one rifle in a caliber, reloading gets real simple in BP.

They have the range, only that the trajectory is more a rainbow like than modern powder loads.

Also on 45-70 there are three groups with different loads. First group is for the trap doors and old model 45-70. Second group is for the new Marlin lever actions and third group is only for the Ruger No 1 in 45-70. I think commercial loads only come in 45-70 government (group I loads).

Just trade off my Shiloh Sharps in 45-100.

A word of caution, black powder can get very addicting.

[Buffalobob]

Killing an elk is a difficult business in the first place. Limiting yourself to an obsolete weapon with which you have no experience is increasing the difficulty. The standard 45-70 will undoubtedly kill an elk if the shot is well placed. Placing a shot well at 200 yards with iron sights is a skill to be developed.

Ready made ammo can be purchased all the way up to 45-120. Whether any normal human being can shoot such a load in a carry rifle is another question and is beyond my knowledge.

http://www.buffaloarms.com/.42_.45_c...n_pr-4443.aspx

http://www.tenxammo.com/tenx_ammo_B.html

The problem is that a rifle may not shoot well with a particular brand of ammo and when you only have a few choices it is really hit or miss.

Shiloh Sharps makes some beautiful rifles.

http://www.shilohrifle.com/model1874.html

[MVP]

Unless you cast your own bullets loading BP is not cheap, quality bullets can be ordered ranging from $30 to $50 for 50. Powder goes quick too with the large charges, 1 lb (7000gr) can only provides 70, 100gr charges...

I recommend C. Sharps over Shiloh for two reasons: barrel quality and delivery time. Otherwise I do not see any difference between the two companies if comparing apples to apples...

MVP

[MVP]

Another possibility is a lever gun in 45-70, Original Winchesters are out there but are pretty pricey. Marlin model 1881's are also available at lower prices but still not cheap. Both Browning and Winchester have reproduced the Winchester 1886 but the Win has a tang safety, sort of a tit on a boar hog. Turnbull does a beautiful 1886 at about $2700.00 The modern Marlin is ok but a bit light and the newer (since 1980's) has a tit (additional buttom safety) as well...

MVP

[HOLLiS]

MVP, one reason I got into casting my bullets when I first for into BP. The cost savings was excellent. A lead pot, a dipper and Lyman mold + I already had a heat source. Lead at the time was readily available at tire stores (close to Lyman No 2) and pure lead was not expensive.

The other factor with a single shot, 70 rounds is a lot of shooting. My first BP was a pistol and then a Zouave .58 cal Musket. Eventually I got into paper cartridges, then combustible cartridges and metallic cartridges. I have competed in SASS with cap locks. It is fun and adds a dimension to understanding history.

My oldest shooter is a 1818 Springfield. It went through a Belgium conversion around '42 and then rifled for the Civil War. For my older stuff that originally used BP, I prefer BP over smokeless.


C-sharps are very nice, I had a one. What I need is to find another long range locally to shoot at. We had a 1600 M range, the farmer leased it out and we lost use of it. Sure appreciated the use.

[TOMAHAWK9521]

The 45-70 would be an ideal cartridge for your purposes. As for which Old West rifle to use, check out Uberti and Navy Arms. Uberti makes some damn fine reproduction pieces. Look at their 1876 Winchester Centennial model. It comes in a 45-75 and there are factory loads available for it.

Navy Arms has some nice Sharps rifles in 45-70 as well.

As for the ranges you are talking about, 200 yards for an elk would be ideal but I can't guarantee it. I have never hunted elk in Wyoming but I can't imagine it being any different than Colorado.

I hope this helps.

Patrick