Tunisia

[silentreader]

President has fled the country after protests continued despite him making big concessions on freedom of media, etc... Meanwhile, protests continue in Jordan (over inflation) and Algeria and Lebanon's political system is a mess. Just when it seemed like the Middle East might get boring...

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/01/15/wo...5tunis.html?hp

Moved thread to Africa - Richard

[Sigaba]

Originally Posted by silentreader

President has fled the country after protests continued despite him making big concessions on freedom of media, etc... Meanwhile, protests continue in Jordan (over inflation) and Algeria and Lebanon's political system is a mess. Just when it seemed like the Middle East might get boring...

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/01/15/wo...5tunis.html?hp

SR--

Why do you define Tunisia as a Middle Eastern country?

[Dusty]

Originally Posted by Sigaba

SR--

Why do you define Tunisia as a Middle Eastern country?

Well, it is in the middle part of the country east of the Med.

[Sigaba]

Originally Posted by Dusty

Well, it is in the middle part of the country east of the Med.

Opportunities for snark aside--my pink fonted contribution had me laughing before I erased it--I meant the question seriously.

Bernard Nietschmann often wondered if it helps or hinders (or both) our ability to interact with the world when we define countries by geographical region?

Somewhat similarly, historians of Eastern Europe have long rankled at the notion that the pivot of Western civilization is considered by popular audiences to be west of Poland.

As SR is a student of the Middle East, I was wondering what kind of information he'd received that had led him to conclude Tunisia is a Middle Eastern country.

ETA-- SR, to be clear, my question reflects genuine intellectual curiosity.

[Defend]

I was recently in N. Africa, and was surprised by the mass-movement element in politics and national identity. Elsewhere in the Arab world I've seen very localized rioting or protests, usually over an external interest (i.e. protesting an American envoy vs. protesting domestic politics), or maybe local issues (tribal or religious based).

Those with longer term experience than I, is this a shift, or am I off my rocker? In one country in North Africa I was in, there were spontaneous demonstrations in the streets with some degree of frequency, in a manner that I tend to associate with socialist movements more so than Islamist or right-wing Arab politics. That could be a misconception on my part.

When I was in the Middle East (not North Africa) studying politics and religion, there was some resentment towards the governments of the Arab World, on the part of Islamists because they fail to uphold Sharia, and on the part of progressives because of perceived U.S. influence in international policy. Despite that discontentment, it was not something that people were willing to act on - crossing the government wasn't worth the cost. Now we're seeing simultaneous events across the Arab world - any theories on why?

-out

[silentreader]

Originally Posted by Sigaba

SR--

Why do you define Tunisia as a Middle Eastern country?

It's a good question, and gets to the principle difficulty in using any term with sweeping connotations (such as Middle-east, Arab, Islam, Christian, European, "Westerner" etc...) In fact, I'd say the answer is the same as why we consider Australians (or Israelis) to be Westerners instead of Asians. Geographically, they look like they're a lot closer to China, but culturally and historically, their roots lie in what we know as "The West".

Same thing goes for all the countries in North Africa: their history and their self-identification link them much closer to the Middle East than to Europe (or the rest of Africa). They share a language (even if they butcher it beyond recognition in places), a religion (for the most part) and an ethnic identity with Middle Easterners. GRANTED, a lot of Berbers disagree, but even they have adopted many of the "identifiers" of Middle Eastern life.

The really simple and most honest answer to your question is I didn't even think about it. For me, Morocco, Algeria, Tunisia, Libya and Egypt all fall squarely within the realm of "Middle East." It's countries in the Sahil and the Horn of Africa like Eritrea, Somalia, the Sudan, and Mauritania that are harder for me to define.

[lindy]

Originally Posted by silentreader

It's a good question, and gets to the principle difficulty in using any term with sweeping connotations (such as Middle-east, Arab, Islam, Christian, European, "Westerner" etc...) In fact, I'd say the answer is the same as why we consider Australians (or Israelis) to be Westerners instead of Asians. Geographically, they look like they're a lot closer to China, but culturally and historically, their roots lie in what we know as "The West".

Same thing goes for all the countries in North Africa: their history and their self-identification link them much closer to the Middle East than to Europe (or the rest of Africa). They share a language (even if they butcher it beyond recognition in places), a religion (for the most part) and an ethnic identity with Middle Easterners. GRANTED, a lot of Berbers disagree, but even they have adopted many of the "identifiers" of Middle Eastern life.

The really simple and most honest answer to your question is I didn't even think about it. For me, Morocco, Algeria, Tunisia, Libya and Egypt all fall squarely within the realm of "Middle East." It's countries in the Sahil and the Horn of Africa like Eritrea, Somalia, the Sudan, and Mauritania that are harder for me to define.

Clearly you have not spent much time in Northern Africa. Morocco, Algeria, Tunisia, and Libya have a completely different "feel" than the Middle East. Way different. Egypt, in my opinion, has spread their "culture" to the ME via movies and TV shows. This is similar to Russia in the mid-90's and their cravings of anything "American" thanks to American TV shows (reruns of 90201, Melrose Place, and anything uttered by Carson Daly). Also, guys from ME countries don't really mind each other (e.g. Kuwaitis, Emiratis, Saudis, Iraqis, etc) but bring an Egyptian to the party and things change. They all "see" a difference...why don't we?

The HOA and Sahel are really easy to define: Crap-hole-istan.

[silentreader]

Originally Posted by lindy

Clearly you have not spent much time in Northern Africa.

This is true; 2 weeks in Morocco is all I can claim.

Morocco, Algeria, Tunisia, and Libya have a completely different "feel" than the Middle East. Way different.

Different compared to what? They may be more different than, say, Qatar and Bahrain, but aren't they still closer to that culture than they are to Uganda, for example? They seem to be especially close cousins to the Levantine countries (especially Lebanon). I think the Francophone influence has a lot to do with this.

Egypt, in my opinion, has spread their "culture" to the ME via movies and TV shows. This is similar to Russia in the mid-90's and their cravings of anything "American" thanks to American TV shows (reruns of 90201, Melrose Place, and anything uttered by Carson Daly).

This is true, though Egyptian films are starting to feel dated. American/Syrian/Lebanese and Turkish T.V. shows and movies, broadcast from the Gulf, are the new "big deal" in the M.E.

Also, guys from ME countries don't really mind each other (e.g. Kuwaitis, Emiratis, Saudis, Iraqis, etc) but bring an Egyptian to the party and things change. They all "see" a difference...why don't we?

If one were to try to keep track of all the differences Middle Easterners see that Westerners can't, one would soon go crazy. I once went to a bar-on-a-roof in Beirut by myself. I was sitting in-between two groups of people: 4 girls on my left and 2 guys on my right, all Lebanese. They each started talking to me, and it was getting difficult to keep two conversations going at once, so I kind of tried to combine everybody into a nice, gender balanced group of 4 girls and 3 guys. No way. The Lebanese girls kept telling me that Lebanese guys are scum, and the Lebanese guys kept telling me how Lebanese girls are gold diggers. Finally, I turned to the guys and said, "listen, I'm sure you're really nice. But I'm alone at a bar and can either talk with 4 girls or 2 guys.... have a nice night." That story, to me, is the Middle East in a nutshell.

The HOA and Sahel are really easy to define: Crap-hole-istan.

That is easy, and sounds about right. I got close to the Western Sahara border in Morocco, the desert itself is gorgeous but the towns... not so much.


Edit: I also think Islam takes our eye of the ball a little bit; the North African countries could just as easily be considered part of a Southern European/Levantine/Magrhebee "Mediterranean Rim" cultural group. Greeks, Italians, Spanish, coastal Turks and coastal Arabs (phoenicians?) have a lot more in common than they'd like to admit

[blue902]

Originally Posted by silentreader

This is true; 2 weeks in Morocco is all I can claim.



Different compared to what? They may be more different than, say, Qatar and Bahrain, but aren't they still closer to that culture than they are to Uganda, for example? They seem to be especially close cousins to the Levantine countries (especially Lebanon). I think the Francophone influence has a lot to do with this.




This is true, though Egyptian films are starting to feel dated. American/Syrian/Lebanese and Turkish T.V. shows and movies, broadcast from the Gulf, are the new "big deal" in the M.E.

I would posit Egyptian/Lebanese/Turkish shows and movies are the most prevalent in the M.E. and are a significant current type of al-tarb, a kind of Arab view of zeitgeist. If anything, Morocco and Tunisia are the outsiders. From Libya to Saudi to Iraq is Arab Islamic country, and on the borders of that are cousins, sometimes with a history of imperial ambition (Iran, Turkey).

[incarcerated]

Originally Posted by Sigaba

SR--

Why do you define Tunisia as a Middle Eastern country?

Because we don’t have a forum for the Maghreb…?
Where would you prefer he had posted this thread? (Personally, I’d have liked to have seen it in The Early Bird.)
From the NY Times piece:

The fall of Mr. Ben Ali marked the first time that widespread street demonstrations had overthrown an Arab leader. And even before the last clouds of tear gas had drifted away from the capital’s cafe-lined Bourguiba Boulevard, people throughout the Arab world had begun debating whether Tunisia’s uprising could prove to be a model, threatening other autocratic rulers in the region.
“What happened here is going to affect the whole Arab world,” said Zied Mhirsi, a 33-year-old doctor protesting outside the Interior Ministry on Friday. He carried a sign highlighting how he believed Tunisia’s protests could embolden the swelling numbers of young people around the Arab world to emulate the so-called Jasmine Revolution.

No mention of a military coup, as reported by Stratfor.

[Defend]

http://en.ammonnews.<net>/article.aspx?articleNO=11323

Be sure to remove the <> from .<net>.

[Team Sergeant]

Originally Posted by incarcerated

Because we don’t have a forum for the Maghreb…?
Where would you prefer he had posted this thread? (Personally, I’d have liked to have seen it in The Early Bird.)
From the NY Times piece:


No mention of a military coup, as reported by Stratfor.

Africa, where it belongs.

[silentreader]

Originally Posted by Team Sergeant

Africa, where it belongs.

Team Sergeant,

I apologize for misplacing this post. Feel free to move it to the appropriate forum (not that you'd need my permission).

Alternatively, I also mention protests in Jordan and Algeria and the Lebanese crisis, so renaming the thread something along the lines of Political Turmoil in the Arab World could also be appropriate.

Finally, an honest question. In the future, should I have something to post about either a)Israel/Palestine or b)Turkey should it be posted in the Europe thread or the Middle East thread?

[Team Sergeant]

Originally Posted by silentreader

Team Sergeant,

I apologize for misplacing this post. Feel free to move it to the appropriate forum (not that you'd need my permission).

Alternatively, I also mention protests in Jordan and Algeria and the Lebanese crisis, so renaming the thread something along the lines of Political Turmoil in the Arab World could also be appropriate.

Finally, an honest question. In the future, should I have something to post about either a)Israel/Palestine or b)Turkey should it be posted in the Europe thread or the Middle East thread?

I didn't take any offense and you didn't need to apologize. The mistake led to good discussion. It stays here now.

We broke our global forums down by geographic region, not culture.

[LongWire]

Originally Posted by silentreader

Finally, an honest question. In the future, should I have something to post about either a)Israel/Palestine or b)Turkey should it be posted in the Europe thread or the Middle East thread?

I would say that Israel and Palestine land squarely in the ME......Turkey is part of the EU now if we were to include them Geographically. I personally don't think of them being a ME country, more of a crossroads.......but that goes back a few centuries.