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Old 12-16-2009, 10:50   #1
Warrior-Mentor
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FRIEDMAN: Islam needs a Civil War

Seems Friedman is slowly starting to realize the truth about islam...

Unfortunately, he doesn't realize that the civil war he calls for negates islam - which has been "perfected" by Muhammed.


December 16, 2009
OP-ED COLUMNIST
www.jihad.com

By THOMAS L. FRIEDMAN
Let’s not fool ourselves. Whatever threat the real Afghanistan poses to U.S. national security, the “Virtual Afghanistan” now poses just as big a threat. The Virtual Afghanistan is the network of hundreds of jihadist Web sites that inspire, train, educate and recruit young Muslims to engage in jihad against America and the West. Whatever surge we do in the real Afghanistan has no chance of being a self-sustaining success, unless there is a parallel surge — by Arab and Muslim political and religious leaders — against those who promote violent jihadism on the ground in Muslim lands and online in the Virtual Afghanistan.

Last week, five men from northern Virginia were arrested in Pakistan, where they went, they told Pakistani police, to join the jihad against U.S. troops in Afghanistan. They first made contact with two extremist organizations in Pakistan by e-mail in August. As The Washington Post reported on Sunday: “ ‘Online recruiting has exponentially increased, with Facebook, YouTube and the increasing sophistication of people online,’ a high-ranking Department of Homeland Security official said. ... ‘Increasingly, recruiters are taking less prominent roles in mosques and community centers because places like that are under scrutiny. So what these guys are doing is turning to the Internet,’ said Evan Kohlmann, a senior analyst with the U.S.-based NEFA Foundation, a private group that monitors extremist Web sites.”

The Obama team is fond of citing how many “allies” we have in the Afghan coalition. Sorry, but we don’t need more NATO allies to kill more Taliban and Al Qaeda. We need more Arab and Muslim allies to kill their extremist ideas, which, thanks to the Virtual Afghanistan, are now being spread farther than ever before.

Only Arabs and Muslims can fight the war of ideas within Islam. We had a civil war in America in the mid-19th century because we had a lot of people who believed bad things — namely that you could enslave people because of the color of their skin. We defeated those ideas and the individuals, leaders and institutions that propagated them, and we did it with such ferocity that five generations later some of their offspring still have not forgiven the North.

Islam needs the same civil war. It has a violent minority that believes bad things: that it is O.K. to not only murder non-Muslims — “infidels,” who do not submit to Muslim authority — but to murder Muslims as well who will not accept the most rigid Muslim lifestyle and submit to rule by a Muslim caliphate.

What is really scary is that this violent, jihadist minority seems to enjoy the most “legitimacy” in the Muslim world today. Few political and religious leaders dare to speak out against them in public. Secular Arab leaders wink at these groups, telling them: “We’ll arrest if you do it to us, but if you leave us alone and do it elsewhere, no problem.”

How many fatwas — religious edicts — have been issued by the leading bodies of Islam against Osama bin Laden and Al Qaeda? Very few. Where was the outrage last week when, on the very day that Iraq’s Parliament agreed on a formula to hold free and fair multiparty elections — unprecedented in Iraq’s modern history — five explosions set off by suicide bombers hit ministries, a university and Baghdad’s Institute of Fine Arts, killing at least 127 people and wounding more than 400, many of them kids?

Not only was there no meaningful condemnation emerging from the Muslim world — which was primarily focused on resisting Switzerland’s ban on new mosque minarets — there was barely a peep coming out of Washington. President Obama expressed no public outrage. It is time he did.

“What Muslims were talking about last week were the minarets of Switzerland, not the killings of people in Iraq or Pakistan,” noted Mamoun Fandy, a Middle East expert at the International Institute of Strategic Studies in London. “People look for red herrings when they don’t want to look inward, when they don’t want to summon the moral courage to produce the counter-fatwa that would say: stabilizing Iraq is an Islamic duty and bringing peace to Afghanistan is part of the survival of the Islamic umma,” or community.

So please tell me, how are we supposed to help build something decent and self-sustaining in Afghanistan and Pakistan when jihadists murder other Muslims by the dozens and no one really calls them out?

A corrosive mind-set has taken hold since 9/11. It says that Arabs and Muslims are only objects, never responsible for anything in their world, and we are the only subjects, responsible for everything that happens in their world. We infantilize them.

Arab and Muslims are not just objects. They are subjects. They aspire to, are able to and must be challenged to take responsibility for their world. If we want a peaceful, tolerant region more than they do, they will hold our coats while we fight, and they will hold their tongues against their worst extremists. They will lose, and we will lose — here and there, in the real Afghanistan and in the Virtual Afghanistan.


SOURCE:
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/12/16/op...=1&ref=opinion
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Old 12-16-2009, 12:32   #2
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Quote:
Unfortunately, he doesn't realize that the civil war he calls for negates {add belief of choice} - which has been "perfected" by {add deity of choice}.
This position has been used many times in aversion to such reasonably considered metamorphoses - however - there is always the chance that this time may be the exception to History's lessons on the matter.

And so it goes...

Richard's $.02
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“Almost any sect, cult, or religion will legislate its creed into law if it acquires the political power to do so.” - Robert Heinlein
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Old 12-16-2009, 22:25   #3
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Thumbs down

Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard View Post
This position has been used many times in aversion to such reasonably considered metamorphoses - however - there is always the chance that this time may be the exception to History's lessons on the matter.

And so it goes...

Richard's $.02
That's baloney. The Catholic Church under went significant changes during both Vatican 1 and Vatican 2.

Islam, by comparison can NEVER CHANGE. To change islam is to become an apostate, therefore, an unbeliever, who MUST be killed and then will have his or her soul burn in hell for eternity. This has been footnoted here multiple occasions with specific references to Islamic Law.

And I don't care if there's ever a change in Hinduism, or Buddhism or any other religion for that matter... because their religions don't condone or justify killing, mutilating, terrorizing and coercing others to convert or die.

Come on Richard, you are using weak arguments. You have to do better.

Quit trying to feed us liberal talking points. We're not buying it.

Last edited by Warrior-Mentor; 12-16-2009 at 22:28.
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Old 12-16-2009, 23:19   #4
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Astounding - what a fine thing it must be to have such an intellect...and to live in an age which can technologically guarantee there will be room enough in the seat of ones pants to hold it all.

As for myself, after considering the labyrinthine issues related to Islam and modern society, I can't see it all so simply and have chosen to (1) side with History and (2) not feed The Narrative. However, YMMV...and so it goes...

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“Almost any sect, cult, or religion will legislate its creed into law if it acquires the political power to do so.” - Robert Heinlein
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Old 12-16-2009, 23:35   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Warrior-Mentor View Post
Islam, by comparison can NEVER CHANGE. To change islam is to become an apostate, therefore, an unbeliever, who MUST be killed and then will have his or her soul burn in hell for eternity. This has been footnoted here multiple occasions with specific references to Islamic Law.

And I don't care if there's ever a change in Hinduism, or Buddhism or any other religion for that matter... because their religions don't condone or justify killing, mutilating, terrorizing and coercing others to convert or die.
Warrior-Mentor, I have spent years living in a moderate Muslim country, Malaysia, that is tri-cultural: Muslim Malays, Chinese (mostly Buddhists), and Indian (mostly Hindu). That country operates more peacefully and is more stable than most Arab states. They do have their radical elements that pop up from time to time, including al Qaeda, but those are mostly squashed when they get out of control.

I understand your point on how Islam never changes. But what are your thoughts on how some of these countries are able to live by a more inclusive version of Islam. The entire time I was there (including during 9/11) I don't remember any stories of beheadings, torture, bombs etc. I felt very welcome there and never felt afraid to wander about in that country. It seems as if there are those Muslims who choose to operate by a softer standard - they might want to convert everyone to Islam, but in the meantime, they are not intent on killing everyone who disagrees.

Thoughts? Thanks...
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Old 12-17-2009, 00:45   #6
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Great question. Wafa Sultan explains better than I could.

From her book “A God who hates” pages 165-169:

Arab heritage has to be acquired from Arab books. Based on her conversations with non-Arab Muslims, she is convinced that there is a great deal of difference between Arab Muslims and non-Arab Muslims.

“Arab Muslims have a more profound understanding of the Koran, and of the life and sayings of the prophet Muhammed and what has been written about him. As a result, they have been more exposed to the application of Islamic teachings than have non-Arab Muslims. When an Arabic-speaking Muslim Prays, he understands what the prayer means, while a non-Arab Muslim repeats the prayer without understanding it.”

“A Muslim PRAYS FIVE TIMES A DAY, and on each occasion he recites the Fatiha, the first verse of the Koran, a number of times.” In this prayer “Muslims execrate Christians and Jews a number of times in the course of a single prayer, which they REPEAT FIVE TIMES A DAY. Non-Arab Muslims are un aware of that they are cursing Christians and Jews, because they pray in Arabic without understanding what they are saying. This means that the quantity of the hatred they absorb from their prayers is less than that absorbed by Arab Muslims, who are aware of what they are saying.”

She explains that, “Islamic Terrorism is the product of the Arab heartland.”

And Wafa is very clear stating,Islamic terrorism is led by Arabs, and those non-Arabs who aspire leadership are Arab trained.”

Wafa’s stories [throughout “A God Who Hates”] humanize the impact of the barbaric islamic laws that are sacrosanct in islam as codified in sharia.

GET “A GOD WHO HATES” HERE:
http://www.amazon.com/God-Who-Hates-...tt_at_ep_dpt_1
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Old 12-17-2009, 01:48   #7
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I largely agree with the Sir.

Islam, as it moves through the world, changed as it interacted with other cultures. It is a war based religion, the product of a brutal culture. However, SE Asia wasn't violently converted (at least not as violently as the Middle East) and the existent cultures (Buddhist, Hindu and animist) influenced its expression, namely tolerance. True, women wear the hijab and Arabic expressions have well made their way into Bahasa, but the Malay version of Islam is dramatically different that of the Arab world.

What does this really mean though for Islam? It means that the Malay version is essentially an apostate version of Islam (according to an Arabic perspective) in that it embraces (or allows) tolerance and coexistence. Obviously this is my read of the situation, but I think it bears up under scrutiny.

Just like there are folks born into a Catholic country who aren't really Catholic, there are Muslims born in an Islamic country who are only notionally Muslim. There are more of those in Malaysia than there are elsewhere. It is a lack of their "muslimness" that has largely enabled Malaysia to connect with the Western world and develop its people and infrastructure.

That said, one of the shitheads we were training there had a picture of OBL as his screen saver. Several of the good ones though came up and confessed that they were Christian or Buddhist. . . so it goes.
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