ATV MRAPs in Afghanistan

[Warrior-Mentor]

Here's the story:

Mideast Stars and Stripes
October 13, 2009

ATV MRAPs Are Tested In Afghanistan

By Dianna Cahn, Stars and Stripes

BAGRAM AIR FIELD, Afghanistan – The new lighter all-terrain vehicle MRAPs gave them a thrill when officers on Sunday test-drove the first ones to arrive in the war zone, zipping up and down inclines that the larger more cumbersome predecessors struggle to navigate.

But the bomb-resistant M-ATV, or Mine Resistant Ambush Protected ATV, is meeting with some skepticism.

It is designed with the same V-shaped hull that disperses the blast of a road-planted bomb, making “Thank God for the MRAP” a near-constant refrain among troops on the front lines. It answers the challenge of the clunkier MRAP that cannot navigate the more mountainous and off-road terrain of much of the Afghan battlefield.

But a senior counter improvised explosives device commander questioned whether the entire premise of the lighter vehicle mitigated some of its benefits because weight is part of what makes the MRAP so resistant to the bombs.

“It’s been tested back in the States,” said Lt. Col. Brennan Phillips, commander of Task Force Paladin East, which supports the 82nd Airborne in eastern Afghanistan to counter the explosives threat. “It’s untested on the battlefield.”

Still, the vehicle, which weighs at least 16 tons, is far more comfortable and has suspended seats and padding so soldiers’ feet don’t absorb the brunt of a buried bomb blast. The smaller M-ATV is not as alienating to the Afghan population as the hulking MRAPs now on the ground, an important element in a counterinsurgency war.

And it can maneuver.

“It makes me miss my Jeep back home,” said Maj. David Klahn, Paladin East executive officer, who test-drove the M-ATV.

The first batch of M-ATVs arrived in Afghanistan on Oct. 1. There are now seven at Bagram and more are on the way.

Anybody have on the ground experience with these?

What's the feedback?

[Richard]

Looks alike some kind of Infinity FX Crossover on steroids - info article from Popular Mechanics:

http://knol.google.com/k/mat%C3%ADas...mv1qrxhgdc/27#

...which weighs at least 16 tons...

The M113 only weighed around 13 tons.

Richard

[Prester John]

I tooled around in one here a few weeks back...

As i see it, it offers NOTHING on the standard MRAP, which, frankly I already saw as a liability more than an asset. The newest permutation of this "miracle" vehicle is about the size of an F-350... on steroids, lifted on 46" tires, and not easily entranced or exited.

MRAPs force us to think in terms of roads as our only avenue of approach or conveyance. They simply aren't maneuverable or agile enough to negotiate off the roads here in Afghan farmland, much less drive up the spine of a ridge or finger and dominate the high ground. No matter how "light" you make an MRAP, it is still channelizing you into using roads... maybe smaller roads, but roads nonetheless.

The insurgent don't even have to work to blow up MRAPs anymore... they lay in IED's on MSR's months in advance and just wait for the right moment to tie-in and initiate. For the most part, CF don't dismount and check culverts and irregularities during their patrols because it's far too difficult to dismount every 40-100m to check for bombs, and if they simply dismount the entire movement (as many do at this point) the insurgents rig up effective AP directional devices in the vicinity of the MSR. The ATV-MRAP is MORE difficult to dismount from, and will encourage even less Situational Awareness on the part of the TC.

I'm not a fan, but I think the entire Army should be on ATV's and dirt bikes.

My $.02.

[Utah Bob]

Day late and a dollar short. Think of how many we could have sold to the Russians.

And the end result would have been the same.

[Guy]

I'm not a fan, but I think the entire Army should be on ATV's and dirt bikes.

Are you suggesting that we (taxpayer), close the company that manufacture these?

The horror of suggesting a change in TTPs would have politicians (especially those where these are made) up in arms!

Stay safe.

[Prester John]

I would assume there would be significant pork in supplying the entire Army with Polaris quads and KL650's... But nowhere near the multi-million dollar price tag of each of these MRAPs... It isn't pleasant to think of how many soldiers lives are put at risk by channelizing them on the road in MRAPs. Or, that by channelizing them you are only temporarily securing a VERY narrow band of highway, and allowing the insurgents free roam in all areas off the MSR.

Here's a hypothetical:

A group of soldiers uses dirt bikes and ATV's to effectively eliminate the IED threat by NEVER getting on a MSR. All the riders are licensed and trained in an Army approved motorcycle and off-road driving class with a 45 hour POI and extensive hands on training.

The likelihood of an IED strike on heavily Coalition used roads in their particular province is so high that everyone views it as a question of "when" not "if".

The IED's being implemented have been made larger and larger in order to effectively breach and/or roll any armored vehicle they hit. Even the lucky ones inside this MRAPs are suffering TBI's, broken legs and ankles, and minor/major spinal injuries.

The MRAP is certified by its manufacturer to mediate most IED blasts and represents an approved and "safe" transportation alternative to less armored but more tactically useful and effective conveyances. Choosing the MRAP's is a decision that can't blow back on command, but is daily proven to be a liability for soldiers and harms the general strategic impact of our forces on this ever changing battle front.

How would command react to an isolated, non-combat accident on a dirt bike by one of these soldiers?

And I guess the real question, from someone who freely admits he doesn't have a great grasp on what the overall strategic objectives are in Afghanistan, is: Are we genuinely interested in impacting this battle space and improving the security of the Indigenous people?

I know the concept of the MRAP was meant to protect soldiers, but the enemy has developed TTP's to transform it from a safe means of transportation into a coffin on wheels, shouldn't our strategies change just as quickly?