18x with Tattoos

Disciple · 11-08-2010, 17:57

First, I would like to apologize if anyone feels that my questions have already been answered in other threads. My searches have not yielded sufficient answers, and would appreciate anyones effort to point me in the right direction.

I am interested in becoming an 18x candidate. I have all confidence in my abilities to do well in selection and am very excited at the prospect at overcoming such a challenge.

However, I have several tattoos that would be visible in a PT uniform.
I have managed to find enough information regarding joining the army in general and its tattoo requirements. However, I have not found any information as to tattoo requirements in SF, and the recruiters that I have spoken to do not seem to be very knowledgeable on this specific topic.

Will tattoos affect my chances of selection?
I ask specifically because I was told by a marine recruiter that I am most likely precluded from Marine Corps OCS due to them. (This was before I knew about 18x enlistment, now that I know it is an option, there is no doubt in my mind that Army SF is my preference)

Also, is it possible that "on paper" there are no regulations precluding me from SF selection, but that I will, in reality, encounter discrimination in the selection process due to the ink?

I am willing to spend the entirety of my enlistment bonus on tattoo removal if that is my only option (though it is my strong preference not to do so), and would prefer to begin such a long process sooner than later if it is necessary.

General description of tattoos:
2 inch x 2 inch square, left inside forarm, fully visible in PT uniform
1.5 inch x 1 inch, left lower bicep, fully visible in PT uniform
6 inch x 8 inch, right upper arm (half sleeve), approx 6in x 3in visible in PT uniform

All in Grayscale (No color, black ink only)

**Pete** · 11-08-2010, 18:09

http://www.professionalsoldiers.com/...hlight=Tattoos

Just a casual search using the term "tattoos" listed a number of threads. You've read them all and found nothing?

Dozer523 · 11-08-2010, 18:12

I think you're ahead of the game for Selection. IIRC the tattoo phase comes after Nasty Nick.
If you think tattoos are all you have to worry about during selection I suspect you are in for a little-bitty surprise. I think you should go do PT.

Disciple · 11-10-2010, 18:41

I have read through that thread, but still do not feel like the anecdotal information gives an explicit answer. I understand that tattoos are frowned upon, but is there a clear cut distinction as far as SELECTION goes?

That thread would have me believe that I cannot be selected due to my tattoos being an operational hazard.

The question I have then becomes whether or not I would have time (and perhaps the ability to attain a waiver, if necessary) to go through the basic->AIT->pre-SFAS-> SFAS pipeline and get tattoo removal treatments?

Also, as far as the pt aspect goes, I have been immersing myself in Muay Thai Kickboxing for the past few years of my life and, despite scoring 300 on the Army PT already, still plan to take another 5 months to get myself into even better shape.

I am confident in my physical and mental ability to not only pass selection, but be a hard working and productive member of an ODA. I would absolutely HATE to be kept back from doing so because of tattoos.

Likewise, I would be giving up a relatively bright looking future in the field of Law, and would utterly dejected if, after all of my hard work and preparation, I had put a pretty good life and lifestyle COMPLETELY on hold for 60 months just to be an 11B because noone was willing to give me a straight answer about this question.

I apologize, but I hope that everyone out there takes a moment to think back to when they were not yet a Quiet Professional, and were apprehensive about signing away 4 years of their lives, and take a moment to understand that I am in that position.

I would GLADLY serve on an ODA and would gladly put in the years of training and hard work to do so, but I am not willing to sign a contract unless I know that serving on an ODA is even an option.

Dozer523 · 11-10-2010, 19:05

Oh boy, Here we go!

11-14-2010, 13:09

I've got a grinder out in the blacksmith shop that could quickly solve all tattoo problems.

greenberetTFS · 11-14-2010, 13:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by wet dog

I've got a grinder out in the blacksmith shop that could quickly solve all tattoo problems.

Heh,heh,heh(

).......................

Big Teddy

**The Reaper** · 11-10-2010, 19:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by Disciple

I have read through that thread, but still do not feel like the anecdotal information gives an explicit answer. I understand that tattoos are frowned upon, but is there a clear cut distinction as far as SELECTION goes?

That thread would have me believe that I cannot be selected due to my tattoos being an operational hazard.

The question I have then becomes whether or not I would have time (and perhaps the ability to attain a waiver, if necessary) to go through the basic->AIT->pre-SFAS-> SFAS pipeline and get tattoo removal treatments?

Also, as far as the pt aspect goes, I have been immersing myself in Muay Thai Kickboxing for the past few years of my life and, despite scoring 300 on the Army PT already, still plan to take another 5 months to get myself into even better shape.

I am confident in my physical and mental ability to not only pass selection, but be a hard working and productive member of an ODA. I would absolutely HATE to be kept back from doing so because of tattoos.

Likewise, I would be giving up a relatively bright looking future in the field of Law, and would utterly dejected if, after all of my hard work and preparation, I had put a pretty good life and lifestyle COMPLETELY on hold for 60 months just to be an 11B because noone was willing to give me a straight answer about this question.

I apologize, but I hope that everyone out there takes a moment to think back to when they were not yet a Quiet Professional, and were apprehensive about signing away 4 years of their lives, and take a moment to understand that I am in that position.

I would GLADLY serve on an ODA and would gladly put in the years of training and hard work to do so, but I am not willing to sign a contract unless I know that serving on an ODA is even an option.

D:

I am not a big believer in waivers. Actions have consequences that we must live with.

All you are getting here is opinions. The only opinion that counts is the one at the MEPS that gets you the contract, or not.

If you are disdainful or afraid of possibly serving your enlistment as an Infantryman, stay in school.

TR

rdret1 · 11-10-2010, 19:17

AR 670-1

Quote:

e. Tattoo policy
(1) Tattoos or brands anywhere on the head, face, and neck above the class A uniform collar are prohibited.
(2) Tattoos or brands that are extremist, indecent, sexist, or racist are prohibited, regardless of location on the body,
as they are prejudicial to good order and discipline within units.
(a) Extremist tattoos or brands are those affiliated with, depicting, or symbolizing extremist philosophies, organizations,
or activities. Extremist philosophies, organizations, and activities are those which advocate racial, gender or
ethnic hatred or intolerance; advocate, create, or engage in illegal discrimination based on race, color, gender, ethnicity,
religion, or national origin; or advocate violence or other unlawful means of depriving individual rights under the U.S.
Constitution, Federal, or State law (see para 4–12, AR 600–20).
(b) Indecent tattoos or brands are those that are grossly offensive to modesty, decency, or propriety; shock the moral
sense because of their vulgar, filthy, or disgusting nature or tendency to incite lustful thought; or tend reasonably to
corrupt morals or incite libidinous thoughts.
(c) Sexist tattoos or brands are those that advocate a philosophy that degrades or demeans a person based on gender,
but that may not meet the same definition of “indecent.”
(d) Racist tattoos or brands are those that advocate a philosophy that degrades or demeans a person based on race,
ethnicity, or national origin.
(3) Counseling requirements.
AR 670–1 • 3 February 2005 5
(a) Commanders will ensure soldiers understand the tattoo policy.
(b) For soldiers who are not in compliance, commanders may not order the removal of a tattoo or brand. However,
the commander must counsel soldiers, and afford them the opportunity to seek medical advice about removal or
alteration of the tattoo or brand.
(4) If soldiers are not in compliance with the policy, and refuse to remove or alter the tattoos or brands, commanders
will:
(a) Ensure the soldier understands the policy.
(b) Ensure the soldier has been afforded the opportunity to seek medical advice about removal or alteration.
(c) Counsel the soldier in writing. The counseling form will state that the soldier’s refusal to remove extremist,
indecent, sexist, or racist tattoos or brands anywhere on the body, or refusal to remove any type of tattoo or brand
visible in the class A uniform (worn with slacks/trousers), will result in discharge.
(5) Existing tattoos or brands on the hands that are not extremist, indecent, sexist, or racist, but are visible in the
class A uniform (worn with slacks/trousers), are authorized.
(6) Finality of determination.
(a) Recruiting battalion commanders or recruiting battalion executive officers (0–5 or above) will make initial entry
determinations that tattoos or brands comply with this policy for Active Army and Army Reserve soldiers. This
authority will not be delegated further.
(b) Unit commanders or unit executive officers will make determinations for soldiers currently on active duty. This
authority will not be delegated further.
(c) Recruiting and retention managers (O–5 or above) will make initial entry determinations that tattoos or brands
comply with this policy for National Guard soldiers. This authority will not be delegated further.
(d) Professors of military science (O-5 or above) will make initial entry determinations that tattoos or brands comply
with this policy for ROTC cadets. This authority will not be delegated further.
(e) The Director of Admissions will make initial entry determinations that tattoos or brands comply with this policy
for the U.S. Military Academy cadets. This authority will not be delegated further.
(f) Determinations will be fully documented in writing and will include a description of existing tattoos or brands
and their location on the body. A copy of the determination will be provided to the soldier. Unless otherwise directed
by the Army Deputy Chief of Staff, G-1, these determinations are final. If a tattoo or brand is discovered to violate this
policy after an initial determination has been documented, commanders must submit requests for an exception to policy
or for discharge through the soldier’s chain of command to the MACOM for approval. Appeals to the MACOM
decision will be forwarded to the Army Deputy Chief of Staff, G-1 for decision.
(7) Soldiers may not cover tattoos or brands in order to comply with the tattoo policy.

The AR only specifies the Class A uniform. I have known many SF soldiers with a lot of tats. They usually weren't visible with anything other than the PT uniform or sometimes when the sleeves were rolled up. There will still be commanders and SGMs who definitely do not approve of them though. They may hold you back from some assignments but not to go through the course.

ZonieDiver · 11-10-2010, 19:21

I don't know the answer to your question. I guess, in part, it would depend on the content of the tatts!

However:

Quote:

I apologize, but I hope that everyone out there takes a moment to think back to when they were not yet a Quiet Professional, and were apprehensive about signing away 4 years of their lives, and take a moment to understand that I am in that position.

I would GLADLY serve on an ODA and would gladly put in the years of training and hard work to do so, but I am not willing to sign a contract unless I know that serving on an ODA is even an option.

I think back to when I was not a QP very often. When I became a QP, we didn't even call it QP. I enlisted in January 1970. I had, in the back of my mind, the idea that I would LOVE to become a Special Forces soldier. I never thought for a minute, at that time, that I would be able to complete that goal... hell, dream!

That is not why I enlisted. I enlisted to serve my country as a soldier in the United States Army. I would have been proud to have served in any way the Army deemed necessary, and after the deactivation of the 8th SFGA, I got that chance as an airborne infantryman, and then a leg infantryman. I will be proud of my service as an infantryman until my dying day.

There are few things that may happen in your life that you will "KNOW" for sure! Know that fact above all else. IF the chance to become a QP is not worth the "risk" of having to demean yourself as a lowly 11B, then, by all means... don't do it.

You will do yourself, Special Forces, and the Infantry a service by making that decision now. I think "Law" is the perfect place.

Green Light · 11-10-2010, 19:43

Quote:

I would absolutely HATE to be kept back from doing so because of tattoos

It wouldn't be because of tattoos, it would be because you don't think things through. You could be selected, but there are team sergeants and team leaders like I was who would send a guy packing if he showed up with a tattoo (my TS would chase the guy out the door if he had some sort of SF tattoo). Yes, YOUR actions are what are scrutinized. It's part of who you are.

Tattoos say "HEY LOOK AT ME!" We don't need that. I'd recommend considering your alternatives. Removal is one option.

It only takes one small thing, noticed by the wrong person, that will ruin your day in a foreign land. If you've never had a gun stuck in your ear then you won't understand the full impact of what I'm saying. This stuff is for real.

Fatum Me Ducat · 11-12-2010, 00:14

OK....
If you can get into the army with your tattoos, unless something in selection has changed in the past few years, they should do nothing to preclude you from getting through and into the pipeline. Furthermore, looking way down the road at the ICBM distance target, depending on what group you MAY SOMEDAY have the privilege of going to, tattoos may be the rule rather than the exception. Where I am located now, we actually have a local tattoo artist working inside our little enclave and its not because the indidge are getting work done... full sleeves are pretty common.

All that being said... What will prevent you from being selected is a poor attitude, poor pt, and poor land nav. As an SF baby myself, i can tell you that you have an uphill battle ahead of you. Join the army to serve your country in anyway that you can possibly contribute. IMO, you shouldn't join if you can't live with the consequences of being an infantryman (I use the term consequence loosely). Because, odds are, when you don't get selected, an infantryman is what you'll be. Have a goal to be an 18 series and do everything in your power to attain that goal. However, don't be the guy that when asked the question, "Why did you join the army?" You answer, "Cause I want to be SF." You should join to serve and live out the aforementioned values. Your preferred method of serving should undoubtedly be as a Green Beret if that is the path you so choose... Just remember that it's a privilege to serve. If you make it, you will go through a certain school in the pipeline someday where you'll learn how true a statement that is.

PS- A Long Tab tramp stamped across your lower back is a great way become friends with selection cadre. And, as such, become insta-selected.

PPS- Just kidding. Don't do that.

rdret1 · 11-12-2010, 22:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fatum Me Ducat

PS- A Long Tab tramp stamped across your lower back is a great way become friends with selection cadre. And, as such, become insta-selected.

PPS- Just kidding. Don't do that.

Depends on the sex of said tattooee.