In Law Schools, Grades Go Up, Just Like That

[Richard]

And so it effin' goes...

Richard

In Law Schools, Grades Go Up, Just Like That
NYT, 21 June 2010

The goal is to make its students look more attractive in a competitive job market.

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/06/22/bu...er=rss&emc=rss

[nmap]

Grade inflation - not just for lawyers anymore.

[craigepo]

I wish they would go back and inflate my law school grades. I might go from "dumbshit" to "oxygen thief".

[tst43]

Originally Posted by craigepo

I wish they would go back and inflate my law school grades. I might go from "dumbshit" to "oxygen thief".

Judge, I think you and I would get along very well.

[PedOncoDoc]

On a related note, what are everyone's thoughts on special permissions for students persuing advanced professional degrees - particularly law and medical degrees?

I offended a few of my "fellow" students while I was in medical school for implying that no special arrangements should be made for students with a learning disability or language issues. I felt that if you wanted to be a professional in a field where lifelong learning is mandated and audited - you should demonstrate the ability to perform at the same level as your peers. I followed it up with, "They wouldn't give me a head start in a running race so I could pursue my dreams of being a professional sprinter in spite of not being graced with exceptional sprinting speed." It is also my opinion that a student should have demonstrated adequate mastery of the primary language where they expect to practice their profession in the pre-admission screening regardless of their primary language. I believe this to be especially true in professions where communication and language interpretation are vital.

This does not reflect my opinions about undergraduate degrees which I feel should be achievable in spite of learning/language disadvantages should appropriate support be provided.

Thoughts?

ETA: Our medical school was pass/fail for the classroom component which removed the possibility of grade inflation and also lead to a more cooperative learning environment (people shared resources knowing that it may not jeapordize their class rank.)

Have any law schools adopted a Go/NoGo grading system?

[craigepo]

Originally Posted by PedOncoDoc

On a related note, what are everyone's thoughts on special permissions for students persuing advanced professional degrees - particularly law and medical degrees?

I offended a few of my "fellow" students while I was in medical school for implying that no special arrangements should be made for students with a learning disability or language issues. I felt that if you wanted to be a professional in a field where lifelong learning is mandated and audited - you should demonstrate the ability to perform at the same level as your peers. I followed it up with, "They wouldn't give me a head start in a running race so I could pursue my dreams of being a professional sprinter in spite of not being graced with exceptional sprinting speed." It is also my opinion that a student should have demonstrated adequate mastery of the primary language where they expect to practice their profession in the pre-admission screening regardless of their primary language. I believe this to be especially true in professions where communication and language interpretation are vital.

This does not reflect my opinions about undergraduate degrees which I feel should be achievable in spite of learning/language disadvantages should appropriate support be provided.

Thoughts?

Generally agree. If you are getting a professional certification, the folks who pay you deserve to receive professional services.

I had a friend in law school who figured out after the first semester that he was dyslexic(he told me his problem, and I said "Charles, dumbass, you're dyslexic). The dean allowed him to get the final one hour before everybody else, all he could do is read, then he had the same three hours to finish the test that everybody else had. (for those that don't know, 90% of law school classes are graded based upon one comprehensive final exam).

We had a couple of foreign students in law school. The thought was that they were allowed in, but would return home to practice law.

A family practice doc here in town attended medical school in Rome(he is not Italian). He says that every class, test, lecture was conducted in Italian, and he had to learn Italian to get through school. I can't imagine taking any class, especially law/medicine classes, in a different language.

I wonder if, in the future, part of the US economy's exports will be the exportation of education/educated people.

[nmap]

Originally Posted by PedOncoDoc

On a related note, what are everyone's thoughts on special permissions for students persuing advanced professional degrees - particularly law and medical degrees?

...

This does not reflect my opinions about undergraduate degrees which I feel should be achievable in spite of learning/language disadvantages should appropriate support be provided.

Thoughts?

I agree completely on the professional degrees.

With all due respect, our views seem to differ on undergraduate degrees. Inflating grades in undergraduate classes will lead to lowered standards for admissions to graduate degrees, including the professional degrees. If students don't have adequate preparation - but give the appearance of preparation through their grades - then less capable students will be admitted to the various graduate programs, and all else will follow.

I'll give an example. I taught a course in microcomputers - it had been dumbed down to a considerable extent before I ever came on the scene. One assignment required preparation of an Excel spreadsheet. It was about 10 cells vertically, and 5 horizontally. The math concepts included the 4 basics - addition, subtraction, multiplication, and division.

In preparing the students for the assignment, I went through every portion in class, making sure to answer questions along the way. I filled in every formula. Explained why they were fashioned as they were. Gave the students time to make notes, and even to simply copy the formulas. There was nothing to prevent them from simply filing in the spreadsheet and making a 100%.

In addition, I provided a web page with most (but not quite all!) of the formulas available. All they had to do was copy and paste, fill down, or fill right.

So...what happens? Two students turn in work that looks beautiful. Absolutely gorgeous. And yet...oddly enough...even though they got the correct answers...their formulas were complete nonsense. Turns out, they cheated. Their work was a fake, done in Word. Then they copied the assignment, and each turned it in as original work. The most I could do was to decline to give them a grade.

Anyone want one of those students as their physician? Or their defense counsel?

Neither was disabled, BTW.

So, let's consider students who are deaf. Ever try to teach programming concepts to the deaf? With a couple translators using ASL? Oh, granted, they can spell out the words - but the student is at an horrific disadvantage. If one boosts their grades for tests and assignments, one simply defers the problem. A less-than-competent programmer comes out the other end. And employers look elsewhere.

By all means, give those who need tutoring, translators, and other such aids the help they need. But I think grade inflation is as insidious...and, ultimately, as deadly....as certain dread diseases. Please don't turn a blind eye to inflation of undergraduate grades.

[tst43]

Originally Posted by Broadsword2004

They were discussing this at another forum I attend, a lawyer there said that this has actually been a problem in law schools for some thirty years now.

Not where I went to law school it wasn't. I remember one occassion after the final grades for a class in probate law (the legal equivalent of watching paint dry, imho) went up, a friend and I were celebrating by giving each other high fives. The dean was walking by and asked if we were so excited because we each received an "A". To which we responded, "Not even close, dean, but damn we passed". I would have happily accepted a little "grade bending" for that class.

To this day I almost break out in a cold sweat when someone asks a probate law question.