you loot, I shoot

[frostfire]

saw these signs in New Orleans, but Joe Horn put this to practice in Texas. AM and TR discussed this exact scenario in a different thread.
Crime doesn't pay vs. trigger-happy.
LE folks & lawyers, what's your take?

http://abclocal.go.com/ktrk/story?se...cal&id=5538780

(11/15/07 - KTRK/PASADENA, TX) - A dramatic 911 call from the Pasadena man who allegedly shot and killed two men accused of burglarizing his neighbor has been released. The dispatcher tried to talk him out of it.

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At about 2pm Wednesday, Joe Horn called 911 from inside his Pasadena home. He says he saw two men break into his neighbor's house. Horn tells police that he is armed with a shotgun.
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FULL 911 AUDIO
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"Hurry up, man. Catch these guys, will ya? I ain't gonna let them go, I'm gonna be honest with ya," said Horn on the 911 call. "I'm not gonna let them go. I'm not gonna let them get away with this (expletive)."

Horn and the dispatcher spent more than seven minutes on the phone, much of that with the dispatcher trying to convince Horn not to go outside.

"I'm gonna shoot, I'm gonna shoot," said Horn.

"Stay inside the house and don't go out there, OK?" responded the dispatcher. "It's not worth shooting someone over this."

"I don't want to, but if I go out there to see what the hell is going on, what choice do I have?" said Horn.

"I don't want you to go out there. I asked if you could see anything out there," said the dispatcher.

Horn tells the dispatcher that he understands his rights and even makes reference to the September 1 expansion that gives homeowners greater protection from prosecution should they choose to confront someone breaking into their home.

Before he can be convinced otherwise, Horn tells police he sees the burglars coming out of his house.

"He's coming out of the window right now," said Horn to the 911 dispatcher. "I gotta go, buddy. I'm sorry, but he's coming out the window."

"Don't, don't , don't go out the door. Mr. Horn? Mr. Horn?" said the dispatcher.

"(Expletive), they just stole something," said Horn to the dispatcher. "I'm sorry. I ain't gonna let them get away with this. They got a bag of something. I'm doing it."

The dispatcher can't stop Horn, who takes the phone with him as he goes outside.

"Move, you're dead," Horn, who took the phone outside with him, could be heard saying to the suspects.

Then three gunshots could be heard.

Horn admits later on the 911 call that he did, in fact, fire those shots. The names of the two men shot have not yet been released pending identification and notification of their next of kin. Horn has not been arrested or charged with any crime. A police investigation is still underway. This case likely will end up in the hands of a Harris County grand jury.

[TtownBeatdown]

http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/...n/5309288.html

I don't think he did anything wrong except saying he was going to kill them before he actually did.
Good ol' Texas!

[echoes]

Just read the article. Outstanding IMHO.

This guy could be my neighbor anyday.

Americans have the right to defend themselves, and those around them.

Holly

[The Reaper]

For defense purposes, he sure made a lot of statements that could be used against himself.

Since the benefit goes to the person employing lethal force if they were defending themselves or their property, I think he should have been less macho and more fearful in his statements. In the transcript, he sounds eager to go out of his way shoot them.

If you call 911, the call is going to be recorded and every word you say is going to be analyzed. There is no point in talking to the dispatcher after reporting the location and nature of the crime, descriptions of the perps and yourself, that you are armed, concerned for your safety, and prepared to defend yourself.

If he had shouted something more along the line of "Oh my God, please don't hurt me!" before firing, and forensics showed that they were moving towards him when he fired, he would in all likelihood not be charged or sent before a grand jury in this jurisdiction. As it is now, he sounded eager to shoot, and is going to have to account for his actions in court. Even if he is acquitted, there will be significant legal costs to defend himself.

Not saying that they didn't deserve it, or that the shooting was not justified. Just pointing out that this does not help those who support the castle doctrine, and that your words can come back to hurt you.

Just my .02, YMMV.

TR

Yep, they sure do! They sting very badly. Why do you think while watching "COPS" at 1900hrs. EST on Court TV that when an officer Tasers somebody he is constantly yelling orders at the subject to comply or else? Now having Tasered people myself, what is really running through my mind while screaming commands is I am laughing my butt off. But that will never come out on the witness stand.

[NousDefionsDoc]

Lot of turning away from the social contract lately...

[kgoerz]

Originally Posted by NousDefionsDoc

Lot of turning away from the social contract lately...

Como?

[Retired W4]

Subchapter D, 9.43 is particularly important in this case.

http://tlo2.tlc.state.tx.us/statutes...00.htm#9.43.00

The incident I mentioned in a previous post happened while I was a registered voter and resident of Tarrant County, TX (Arlington). Just like the time four punks were stealing some guys wheels off his car in an apartment complex parking lot. The owner came out with an SKS and opened fire, reloaded and shot some more. The mother of one shot up punk cried "He was a good boy! He never did anything wrong!" Grand Jury result: No Bill!

These incidents where of great interest to me, as home invasions, gang violence, and car jacking where epidemic, just as they are in Chicago. The difference is the law sides with the REAL victims of these crimes in Texas.

[echoes]

Originally Posted by The Reaper

For defense purposes, he sure made a lot of statements that could be used against himself.

Since the benefit goes to the person employing lethal force if they were defending themselves or their property, I think he should have been less macho and more fearful in his statements. In the transcript, he sounds eager to go out of his way shoot them.

If you call 911, the call is going to be recorded and every word you say is going to be analyzed. There is no point in talking to the dispatcher after reporting the location and nature of the crime, descriptions of the perps and yourself, that you are armed, concerned for your safety, and prepared to defend yourself.

If he had shouted something more along the line of "Oh my God, please don't hurt me!" before firing, and forensics showed that they were moving towards him when he fired, he would in all likelihood not be charged or sent before a grand jury in this jurisdiction. As it is now, he sounded eager to shoot, and is going to have to account for his actions in court. Even if he is acquitted, there will be significant legal costs to defend himself.

Not saying that they didn't deserve it, or that the shooting was not justified. Just pointing out that this does not help those who support the castle doctrine, and that your words can come back to hurt you.

Just my .02, YMMV.

TR

Greetings Sir.

Wanted to ask a question, and hope it is okay?

Suppose this is a learning tool...If confronted with similar situation, what would be the appropriate course of action? Variables being neighbor is not at home, elderly, etc...(Personally, if the situation were mine...I'd do the same thing.) But, is it the wrong response?

Holly

[Dad]

When a police dispatcher tells you to do something, you do it! No questions asked. They should be treated just like a uniformed officer on the scene. I have worked with various dispatch centers during my 10 years on our VFD and they are outstanding the huge majority of the time. These guys were slime, no question. But that is not a capital offense. How do you know they didn't stick their hands in the air and surrender? When the police are near at hand they are the ones trained to handle these situations, not crazy old farts with a shotgun. I live in Harris County.

[The Reaper]

Hmm.

Where I came from, and I was a dispatcher for several years, I was not sworn and could no more order people to comply than any other stranger on the phone.

What is their authority based on?

TR

[mdb23]

Originally Posted by frostfire

"Hurry up, man. Catch these guys, will ya? I ain't gonna let them go, I'm gonna be honest with ya," said Horn on the 911 call. "I'm not gonna let them go. I'm not gonna let them get away with this (expletive)."

"I'm gonna shoot, I'm gonna shoot," said Horn.

"Stay inside the house and don't go out there, OK?" responded the dispatcher. "It's not worth shooting someone over this."

"I don't want to, but if I go out there to see what the hell is going on, what choice do I have?" said Horn.

"(Expletive), they just stole something," said Horn to the dispatcher. "I'm sorry. I ain't gonna let them get away with this. They got a bag of something. I'm doing it."

1. This guy should teach a class on what not to say. He's an absolute idiot who sounds like he is just itching to go out and blast these guys. Dumb. Not once did he state or imply that he feared for his or his neighbor's safety, merely that "they stole something" and "he's not letting them get away with it." Nice. Dumbass.

2. I am a firm believer in the Second Amendment, and the Castle Doctrine. If you break into my home, I should be able to kill you. However, I do not support the idea that the Castle Doctrine should apply to other people's castles...not for a second.

Why? Well, it is pretty simple for me to know who is welcome in my home, and who is an intruder. After all, I am the one giving permission. It's pretty cut and dried. With a neighbors castle, there is just too much room for error.

Look, I have had to crawl through a window in my own home (long story), pick a lock after locking myself out, etc., and I have done these things at some pretty weird hours. I don't like the idea of my goofy assed neighbors thinking that they are justified in shooting me as I hang out a window, simply because it's 3am and too dark to recognize me.

Same goes for shooting my kid if he/she has snuck out (unknown to me) and is trying to sneak back in their window late at night. Let me decide whether or not they deserve to be shot. LOL

We get -tons- of false prowler/burglary in progress reports every night at work. Long story short, neighbors call saying tat some unknown dude is breaking into the house next door, or hauling out a TV, etc. We get there, and 99.9999999% of the time, it is a friend, moving company, or family member that the neighbor just doesn't know or recognize, and who has the homeowner's permission to be doing whatever it is they were doing.....

On one call, for example, a lady in the hospital had called her brother and asked him to go to her house, crawl in though the kitchen window, and get her keys and purse (she had been transported by ambulance, and didn't get this stuff). He complied, and the neighbors called on him. We snatched him up, and quickly figured out that there was no harm/no foul. There are tons of examples like this.

Imagine if, instead of calling, all of these nosey neighbors thought that they had the right to go out and shoot these "burglars."

I just don't think the average neighbor has access to enough info to make life and death decisions about who has a right to be on their neighbors property. Too much room for error.....way too much.

Originally Posted by mdb23

We get -tons- of false prowler/burglary in progress reports every night at work. Long story short, neighbors call saying tat some unknown dude is breaking into the house next door, or hauling out a TV, etc. We get there, and 99.9999999% of the time, it is a friend, moving company, or family member that the neighbor just doesn't know or recognize, and who has the homeowner's permission to be doing whatever it is they were doing.....

Imagine if, instead of calling, all of these nosey neighbors thought that they had the right to go out and shoot these "burglars."

On the other hand . . . true story . . . taxpayers get back from two week vacation to find a burglary. Responding officer interviews neighbors across the street. Did you know they were on vacation. Yes. Did you see anything suspicious. Yes. What. Four guys in a moving truck (later, determined to have been a stolen vehicle). But you knew they were on vacation? Yes. Did you call us? No. Why? Well, they were minorities and I didn't want to be a racist.

They weren't that bad, as they left THE PAINT ON THE WALLS.

Don't be a trigger-puller unless you absolutely HAVE TO. If your spidey-sense is tingling, it is tingling for a reason. Call the po-po. Be a good witness, get the plate number, WEAPONS, which hand they were held in, color of the vehicle, two-door, four-door, the direction, the bumper sticker, the big dent, the clothes, the broken window, which tail light/head light was out, and testify, as long and as often as it takes. You CAN be a part of the evildoers nightmare.