"Islam is Most Certainly False"

[nmap]

Originally Posted by HOLLiS

Does that clarify?

I can understand your perspective; you write very clearly.

I can also understand why you urge the point that the greater Islamic population might be driven toward the radicals by the message from the priest.

That said, I am not at all sure about the conclusion.

First, I suspect that radicalism is not a binary condition. Rather, there is a continuum - with beliefs spread across the spectrum from non-believers going through the motions to true believers that foam at the mouth.

But the fundamental question remains - which behavior produces the best outcome for us?

If we take the position that their views are not wrong, then we avoid antagonizing some portion of the believers in Islam. On the other hand, we fail to challenge their beliefs, which form the supporting structure for their actions.

However, if we (or at least, some individuals) say they are in error, we will annoy some of the Islamics. We will also cause some to question their assumptions and perhaps change the underlying precepts of their religion.

I don't claim to know which approach is best. I just find it difficult to believe that we can persuade the moderates that we are correct if we don't advocate our cultural beliefs. We might wish to ask whether challenging beliefs might be a necessary element to trigger change.

MOO - YMMV.

[Sigaba]

Originally Posted by Plutarch

By claiming that this is a bigoted statement, you cast aspersions on faithful Christians everywhere.

Perhaps this was not your intent, but it is the unavoidable consequence of your statement.

By one estimate, there are 2.1 billion Christians on the planet <<LINK>>. By your logic, Christians who are not offended by Hollis's insightful analysis of Botros's statement are not faithful. At least one denomination, the Armenian Apostolic Church, is on record disagreeing with your exceptionally broad assertion and rejecting Botros's interpretation of non-Christian religions <<LINK>>. This church has approximately eight million members (source). Are they unfaithful in your eyes?

Originally Posted by longrange1947

Take great care in believing in Christianity only spreading through love and honey. I can name a goodly number of years that Christianity was forced through torture and war upon many "Savages". That has gone on even into semi modern times. Take a look at Christianity about say 700 years ago and see where it was in relationship to Islam today. Then remember that modern Islam is about that far behind modern Christianity.

And as far as pain of death, I reckon you would not like to denounce Christianity to an Inquisitor about 700 years.

In addition to the use of violence and intimidation, Christianity has also been spread by accommodation, compromise, negotiation, and revision as discussed by Keith Thomas in Religion and the Decline of Magic (1970).

[Richard]

I've always wondered why - if Judaism was the first of the now numerous large monotheistic religious groups in which God appears as we consider or recognize God today - aren't we all Jewish? And for that matter, why do Jews leave the faith - and why are there so many variations of Judaism in existance - including those who believe Jesus to be the Son of God? Of equal importance - in my mind - why do so many religious beliefs - from non-belief (which is of itself a belief) to animism (in which everything has a universal life spirit) - still exist and flourish within the world after so many centuries of proselytizing? And if God is such, why are the oft proclaimed 'false' beliefs - of which there are so many by proclamation - allowed to exist and even flourish? And why would God allow us to be blatantly lied to like that - unless we haven't fallen from God's grace because we're flawed as so many claim, but because we are perhaps of God's image and temperment - flaws and all? Just pondering here.

From my point-of-view only, I personally believe faith - as such - is universal, but the specific ways in which we accept or attempt to understand it are as arbitrary as the methods we use to go about predicting with any sense of certainty what our planet will do with itself - and, thus, with us. Personally, experience, study, and observation tells me that God must exist - my mind tells me that I will never understand God - and my heart tells me - a bit painfully and regretfully - that I am not meant to do so. But why? I don't know. And beyond that - well - I believe. Obviously, there are others.

And so it goes...

Richard's $.02

[charlietwo]

Originally Posted by Richard

And why would God allow us to be blatantly lied to like that - unless we haven't fallen from God's grace because we're flawed as so many claim, but because we are perhaps of God's image and temperment - flaws and all? Just pondering here.

He would let us be blatantly lied to for the same reason he gives us free will.

Originally Posted by Richard

Personally, experience, study, and observation tells me that God must exist - my mind tells me that I will never understand God - and my heart tells me - a bit painfully and regretfully - that I am not meant to do so. But why? I don't know. And beyond that - well - I believe.

Very well put, Richard. Though I would argue you can strive to understand him, very few people on Earth have ever became the subject matter expert in that department. Working towards it is what matters the most.

Hollis-
If someone is passionate enough to devote their lives to the study of something, would it not be cowardice to engage in double-think when asked? Your number of 800,000,000 people makes a strong argument towards challenging a religion that spreads violence everywhere it touches. Whether it be the founding documents or it's major leaders -- specifically Mohammed -- Islam is the worlds largest exporter of radical ideology on violence.

I would argue the seeds of it's own destruction are written within the Quran. Anyone else believe this?

[HOLLiS]

Originally Posted by charlietwo

Hollis-
If someone is passionate enough to devote their lives to the study of something, would it not be cowardice to engage in double-think when asked? Your number of 800,000,000 people makes a strong argument towards challenging a religion that spreads violence everywhere it touches. Whether it be the founding documents or it's major leaders -- specifically Mohammed -- Islam is the worlds largest exporter of radical ideology on violence.

I would argue the seeds of it's own destruction are written within the Quran. Anyone else believe this?

Charlietwo,

I am avoiding what I think about Islam for a reason. I have no doubts that our military is capable of the task assigned. It is not the military that I am concern about. The RVN war was a military success, it was thrown away because we lost the propaganda war. Look at mighty Israel, it has been loosing the propaganda war for a long time.

The same tactics that were employed against us in the RVN war, is being employed today on many levels. It is on the Propaganda war where we are most vulnerable. That is why I mentioned "Hearts and Minds".


BTW, your last sentence, is a good reason not to worry so much. IMHO, the Muslim extremist have more to fear from the future than us. I think they know that and that they are loosing. Also the extremist have natural allies in our partisan political system. (Pelosi, Reid, Kennedy, and the rest of the crew).

I also think our biggest battles is not with the tango, as it is with those at home, much like it was in the RVN war.

[Saoirse]

I think its pointless to worry about driving liberal minded muslims toward the extremists and their agenda. If they are unwilling to stand up (out of fear of death) and declare their anger at the extremists for "hijacking" their "peaceful" religion, then I highly doubt they will become supporters of the violent and mysoginistic extreme. I work with many muslims and one of them has become a friend. We talk constantly about religion, his, mine, others. He feels, much as I do, that education (teaching these people to read and write) will help put a nail in the coffin of the taliban/al quaida. The Imams and tangos use the lack of education as a strong ally in furthering their recruitment and jihad.

I guess the Pakistanis have had about all they are going to take from the tangos in this region of Pakistan... http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,525320,00.html Jeez, I thought a muslim killing another muslim is a great sin.