Leatherman Roll Call

[Bill Harsey]

Originally Posted by NoRoadtrippin

Mr. Harsey,

I should have known you would have one already. We did manage to get some in stock at the shop, but of course now I've only played with it and not worked with it.

Have you given an attempt at breaking it yet? I definitely like the size and weight of it. It seems to have potential as a solid tool. Any thoughts thus far?

Thanks!

Sir,
Luck not design is how I got one. It was a gift from the president of Leatherman.
I don't try to break other makers stuff for several reasons among which is it's really none of my business how strong their stuff is and it makes me look bad for trying to break it. My job is to try and just take care of my stuff.
Another reason is that being a good old Oregon country boy from a big timber logging outfit, I have seen, if not participated in, breaking almost everything we had. This is why I got to spend much time welding, anything can be broken but the core question is, will the tool hold up for the intended uses that may be required of it?

That said, Leatherman recognizes this and told me that this tool is intended for lighter duty than other tools they make. This is also why it weighs less which is a reason for this model. I think it will work fine.

For the record I have several Gerber Tools in my kit, glove box of the pickup and kitchen drawer for handy use. They all work well.
My only small complaint is the black one is hard to see when I set it down outside at night. Nothing daylight can't solve next morning.

[The Reaper]

Originally Posted by Jfreeman

Good points all. I completely understand how a bad experience can "foul the water" when it comes to consumer products.

I do know for a fact that the guys on the tool side of the house have been working hard over the past years to correct the problem that you noticed regarding the strength of the jaws and other implements.

Sorry for the fact that you got "blown off" by someone in customer service. That is not SOP and I would doubt if that person is still with the company. If you still have the tool, return it to the address noted earlier for a repair or replacement.

JF

Jeff:

Thanks for manning up and listening. Donda seems like a great asset. I have a number of older Gerber knives, both fixed and folding, as well as the multi-tools.

Not to pile on here, but my experience parallels Dan's. I have the Gerber tool at the house, but I no longer take it anywhere because its predecessor let me down once. My Leatherman tools have not failed me yet, unless I abused them well beyond the uses they were designed for. "Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me."

Our profession sends us to remote and austere areas for extended periods of time. It could be as long as six months to a year before you get back to civilization and contact with the manufacturer. As my friend John Carver at Eagle said, what good is a warranty when you are 6,000 miles from home, and the item fails? No matter how good the customer service, or or the warranty, or the product improvements, it does not matter when you are in the middle of BFE and you have to borrow a tool from a team member three times per day because yours is broken. Not to be dwelling on a negative, but we are pretty unforgiving when it comes to our gear. Most of us are willing to pay more to get a quality item that we can bet our lives on. Your average consumer may not. That is the difference between a professional, and a casual user/consumer. There is a reason that the Snap-On trucks sell so many tools for what seem like outrageous prices.

Unfortunately, there appears to be a corporate culture to make the cheapest product possible, and to sell it for a few cents less. I understand that Wal-Mart demands the lowest prices. Most companies appear to be focused on the bottom line, and a penny saved is a penny earned. However, not all of us are willing to sacrifice quality for price in our gear. How much more does a CPM S-30V blade cost in steel and abrasives? Not enough to keep me from buying them when I can. Because it just might be my life, a family member's, or a teammate's ass hanging from the end of a piece of nylon that absolutely, positively, has to be cut right then, at night, in the dark, in the heat or cold, at 10,000', with the inevitable rain or snow coming down in buckets. Or a wire that has to be severed, an ammo can that has to be pried open, or a blasting cap that has to be crimped. Then we have to be able to count on our gear to last longer, cut better, be more durable, etc. I applaud those who continue to push the envelope with regards to new and improved materials, innovative technologies, revolutionary (as well as the safer evolutionary) design, etc., rather than seeking to make the same product for less money. I would have to say that Harsey and Reeve, along with many of the smaller designers and makers, have been on the edge of that new wave of innovation, combining it with old fashioned craftsmanship. I have no antipathy toward Gerber, I understand that the corporate leadership sets the tone, regardless of what the marketing hype says. Not directed specifically at your company, but at what price quality, and how many chances should a user give before looking to alternative products?

TR

[NoRoadtrippin]

Originally Posted by Bill Harsey

I don't try to break other makers stuff for several reasons among which is it's really none of my business how strong their stuff is and it makes me look bad for trying to break it. My job is to try and just take care of my stuff.
Another reason is that being a good old Oregon country boy from a big timber logging outfit, I have seen, if not participated in, breaking almost everything we had. This is why I got to spend much time welding, anything can be broken but the core question is, will the tool hold up for the intended uses that may be required of it?

Roger that. I really meant that as a tongue in cheek way of saying "have you used it much yet," but then I suppose sarcasm can be difficult to detect via the internet. Ha.

Thanks for the response either way. I also like my Gerber, its been with me for a long number of years.

[Jfreeman]

TR:

I completely agree with your assessment of the warranty and what it is worth when you are in the field.

The product design parameters differ between Chris Reeve and Gerber by about 180 degrees. Chris is trying to make the best he can for his targeted consumer with the tools at his disposal. He then prices things to account for this with very good results.

Oftentimes, my design briefs will amount to this: it needs to do x,y and Z, it should make "X" gross margin and it should retail for $29.99. With this information, we try to make the best knife/tool/gear we can under the given constraints. In many cases, the end result (product) was not intended for serious users such as yourself but rather for a certain "casual" user who does not need to rely on the product in life/death situations. Our business was built on providing affordable price-point and consumer targeted items at a given quality level. And of course the quality level always comes down to the value proposition: what do you need and how much will you pay for it?

For our knife category, I try to focus more on the value proposition. For example, if marketing wants a $35 clip knife for the mass consumer I try to make the item the best you can get for $35.

IMO, many knife manufacturers let the marketing hype bury that information. What you end up with are unmet expectations and upset customers, ie:, a product is marketed as the best/toughest/strongest but in reality it was never designed to be that way in the first place.

As for your last question, I assume one chance is all most people will give when there are plenty of alternative options.

JF

[lksteve]

Originally Posted by Jfreeman

As for your last question, I assume one chance is all most people will give when there are plenty of alternative options.

Originally Posted by Jfreeman

In many cases, the end result (product) was not intended for serious users such as yourself but rather for a certain "casual" user who does not need to rely on the product in life/death situations.

It seems the answer to you question is in your reply. Not everyone deals in life and death. It is not always a matter of getting value for one's dollar...that said, if a $39.99 tool works every time, I am not as likely to be tempted by one costing considerably more...if it is an essential part of my kit, I will spend the money based on reputation and the input of people who have the tool and use it the way I will have to...in my profession(s), when it comes to matters such as this, I listen to my peers, unless I have experience with a manufacturer or vendor. FWIW.

[The Reaper]

Jeff:

I agree completely.

One of the better "value" knife companies I like which has innovative products at a good price point is CRKT.

Outside of your purview, but too many companies seem to be chasing the last great moneymaker, like tactical flashlights, instead of innovating and coming up with newer, better ideas in their core business.

I agree, if the goal is to make a knife at a specific price point, then make the best one you can for that price. Just bear in mind that some of us prefer to get the quality tool we need and the price is secondary.

That is why you can buy a socket wrench set for $5, or $5,000. Your quality as well as value/pricing, defines your entire business and affects your branding.

TR

[Team Sergeant]

Originally Posted by Jfreeman

As for your last question, I assume one chance is all most people will give when there are plenty of alternative options.

JF

Jeff,

"Most people" are not betting their lives on their gear. One chance is all I would ever give a piece of equipment.

Team Sergeant

[Jfreeman]

Originally Posted by The Reaper

Just bear in mind that some of us prefer to get the quality tool we need and the price is secondary.

That is why you can buy a socket wrench set for $5, or $5,000. Your quality as well as value/pricing, defines your entire business and affects your branding.

TR

I'm kind of getting off topic here, but my operational definition of "quality" is more manufacturing/design-centered. When we refer to quality in mfg, we are speaking strictly of conformance to standards. Not saying that the standard consumer use of the term is incorrect but rather pointing out the differences to aid in the discussion.

For example, if a blade material was specified to be 420HC heat treated to 56Rc (most likely to hit a cost target), and the process is in control, then we say that the item has a high quality level. Of course this is a much differerent use of the term but it all goes back to the design intent and the accompanying constraints. Using this definition, "quality" is a more concrete and useful term which is important for manufacturers that have a wide variety of product lines to manage. This makes it possble to characterize and compare $29 items with $200 items in a mfg setting.

For design quality, my working definition is also slightly different: If all the parts are made per specification and the processes that make those parts are in control and your finished product does not meet a certain performance criteria(s), then the design quality is bad/failing/below standard.

On the branding idea, I simplify it and use the analogy of a bank account. Most companies will try to build that brand bank account through innovation, value and other things that add to the brand. Over time and with a lot of work and successful products we have built our account up to a certain level. Bad or ill-concieved product or knock-offs make huge withdrawals to our account.

From my perspective, most designers in corporations are more interested in building the brand account while the sales force is more focused on making withdrawals. It's a never-ending battle, but to give in would mean the death of the brand and ultimately, the company.

FWIW,
JF

[Swamp]

We were/are issued the Leatherman Wave. It performed great in Iraq. Used it quite a bit when we installed antenae and radios in our vehicle(s). I would have to say the Leatherman has a better feel and seems to have better craftsmanship. The Gerber I owned was not as smooth and it always seemed to pinch my hand when using the pliers....my .02 Regard, Swamp

[Dan]

I received an April Christmas package from Jeff (Jfreeman) / Gerber in today's mail.

I'll plan to check out the multi-tools a bit more and select one for my use; the rest of the many multi-tools, knives, and flashlights will plan to give to some of our brothers to use, as I don't need three of everything

I can say from first glance, the Gerber multi-tools have come a long way since the mid-90s and I was very pleased to see a much better designed jaw hinge. The knife designs are interesting and the Omnivore flashlight that is designed to handle three different types of batteries is a great concept and amazingly bright for one commonly found/used AA battery.

Thank you Jeff and thank you Gerber for going the extra mile with this very nice gesture. We will put them all to good use!

[JJ_BPK]

I have been inactive for 30 years,, but when I get an opportunity, some hog & deer hunting in the Florida management areas.

For the last 12 years we have lived on the rock,, let's talk saltwater fishing,, both offshore and back country fly.

I have had a SOG B60 (black) for over 10 years, I also carry a set of Donnmar CP850i Ti Pliers and my day carry is a CRKT m16-01T.

They have served well. I chose the Ti series and the black SOG because of saltwater corrosion,, even with daily maintenance,, it will destroy just about anything.

I also ware them tethered to a brake-a-way neckless and stuck in my shirt pocket. If they don't get hit with saltwater,, then they get drench in sweat.

I picked the SOG because of the compound leveraged pliers, black oxide, and at the time it was about 1/3 less weight than the Leatherman.

None has failed in any way..

Which brings me to a question,,

Why don't more of you carry any of the SOG models??

Thanks

[RPicart]

I am not sure if this thread is open to everyone for participation, if not, I apologize.

I took Major Martin's advice from Get Selected for Special Forces and bought the Leatherman Super Tool 200.

I don't really use it much, I generally only take it out with me when I go out rucking, keeping it in the ruck because the view here towards multi-tools, etc. doesn't seem to be the same as in the States; or at least that's the case in my area of England due to the rising knife culture and stabbings.

However, I went out for a hike with my father-in-law a few weeks ago in Wales and one of his walking boot laces broke. I brought along my A.L.I.C.E. to get some practice with 45lbs and hills, and I had my Super Tool and some 550 Cord in there along with the weights.

We were able to get his boot laced up using the 550 Cord after cutting it with the Super Tool. So it really made me feel in front of the father-in-law after that.

[The Reaper]

Originally Posted by RPicart

I don't really use it much, I generally only take it out with me when I go out rucking, keeping it in the ruck because the view here towards multi-tools, etc. doesn't seem to be the same as in the States; or at least that's the case in my area of England due to the rising knife culture and stabbings.

How sad.

I am truly sorry that England has come to this sorry state of affairs.

Centuries of service at the vanguard of individual rights have come to an ignominious end.

TR

[TOMAHAWK9521]

I have several Leathermen. Mirco, Super 2000, Surge and the Crunch. My favorite is the Surge because it has the one-hand opening blades on the outside. Had it for a couple years. I loved it until the retention spring used for keeping the interchangeable screwdriver heads fell out and I lost it earlier on this latest deployment. It had a habit of coming loose and finally fell out. Not sure if anyone else had the same problem.

I also have one Gerber Tool. It's the Trail-"Something". The only reason I like it is because it comes with a hoof pick as one of the flip-out tools. That has come in handy while outfitting in the Rockies.

[The Reaper]

Originally Posted by TOMAHAWK9521

I have several Leathermen. Mirco, Super 2000, Surge and the Crunch. My favorite is the Surge because it has the one-hand opening blades on the outside. Had it for a couple years. I loved it until the retention spring used for keeping the interchangeable screwdriver heads fell out and I lost it earlier on this latest deployment. It had a habit of coming loose and finally fell out. Not sure if anyone else had the same problem.

I also have one Gerber Tool. It's the Trail-"Something". The only reason I like it is because it comes with a hoof pick as one of the flip-out tools. That has come in handy while outfitting in the Rockies.

The Charge has the one handed outside opening features as well.

I agree that a Marlinspike or a reamer, like the old SAKs had, would be a handy attachment to have. Maybe I should just find the biggest Leatherman snap in screwdriver blade they have and grind me one.

TR