The Guns of Spring

[Richard]

Now here's a good reason to carry a gun in the glove box!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RPVw4nfESz0

Richard's $.02

[Dozer523]

Originally Posted by Razor

Are we to dismiss the potential training, experience and adaptability of others out of hand?
Yes. Because there is no way to tell if they are trained, equipped and of the temperment to function in this situation. And they don't know the plan. In this situation a guy showing up with a gun is not the same as a guy in a National Ski Partol parka showing up at a car wreck. What are you going to show me? Your Life Membership NRA card?

Not all teachers are like these guys, and I'm not advocating that all teacher must carry, but for those that a) have a valid carry license (i.e., passed whatever prerequisites their state requires for everyone else to carry concealed) and b) want to carry, it seems reasonable to me to let them.Well, maybe . . . but the Principal had better remember to tell the arriving LEO's that "Mr. Razor in room 12 is armed." I bet the response to that from the LE will be "awww f. . . . ! skip that room."

I submit that what you've outlined above is a product of your experiences and training, and can not be expected of most other teachers as well. You are wrong there. There is an industry out there that will be more then happy to go to any school district and conduct a site survey, target analysis and write an OPLAN . . . for a fee.

There is no baseball bat (oh my God, you brought a weapon into the classroom?) HUH? Baseball is still a Sport.

I submit that few teachers and schools would react as you've outlined above, beyond the 'lock the door and pray' step. In general, I disagree. Although there are some teachers that don't belong here most are professional and will do the right thing and follow the plan.

I picture an armed teacher herding his/her students out of the building through any available "hole" while providing cover. And to me that brings to my mind a terribly confusing situation for LEO and a target rich scenario for the POS.
If the students can't get out (3d story window, barred window, locked door), then the teacher posts him/herself in a position to engage the bad guy coming into the room. I can do some serious damage with a baseball and a bat. POS has worn himself down penetrating the perimeter, I know what to expect when the door or window opens he is not expecting me He is for that moment in a confined space and I have lots of room to manuever. I am significantly more committed to my plan of action then he is..

.

[6.8SPC_DUMP]

Originally Posted by The Reaper

The shooter in the Pearl, Mississippi school massacre was stopped when the Vice Principal got a .45 from his truck (illegally on school grounds) and used it to subdue him.

It's not easy to accomplish "happy medium" gun legislation. Registering staff members to keep a handgun locked in the trunk of their sedan/ glove compartment of their truck, on school grounds, is what crossed my mind.

I went to an all male boarding school for most of my HS education and had instructors who were capable in dealing with most student violence. When they had to subdue a student with an xacto blade, or baseball bat, using front kicks and small joint manipulation on the upper body worked for them.

Genetics played a big role in the outcome and shooting is an entirely different scenario, but if you look at the total sum of incidents of school violence , I think you will see that having CCP teachers won't save more lives. Not only is pulling a gun unnecessary in nearly all cases, aside from school shootings; it gives students the opportunity to plan an attack to relieve the instructor's CCW.

This line of reasoning is easy to hate when applied to citizen's private residencies - but schools are not about having the same personal liberties as you do in your home. Just my .02

[Razor]

Originally Posted by Richard

Dozer is correct - and this is, in fact, pretty much the agreed upon standard which is practiced by nearly all schools - public and private - today, something teachers have accepted as a part of their job descriptions, and a reasonable and simple series of defensive actions students/families understand and are agreeable to supporting.

So what you're saying is that lock-down is an compromise-driven, easy to implement, feel-good solution catering to the lowest common denominator, sort of like the TSA?

Most schools today have on-site security or LEOs to assist administration in a variety of security/enforcement tasks.

Perhaps in TX, but I can say with a good degree of certainty that this is not universally true, especially in many smaller schools (< 500 students) in at least...4 states I know of.

immediate anonymous notification (e.g., broadcasting an innocuous sounding phrase such as "The faculty workroom is closed for maintenance until further notice" over the school's PA/telephonic/computer systems) of all campus and outside emergency security personnel, quickly securing of all occupied areas and removing potential 'targets' from the attacker's visibility, and awaiting a trained security response is reasonable, simple, and works well when practiced and applied correctly.

Has this worked well when practiced against an actual shooter, or just in drills?

[kgoerz]

Originally Posted by The Reaper

Not to add further gasoline to this discussion, but it appears to be pretty much universal to lock the classrooms, get down, call 9/11, and pray that the SWAT team gets there before the shooters do. Based on assembly and drive times, I make that at least 30 minutes at our current schools. That has been the school policies at the five schools my kids have attended.

So far, I'd say that is an iffy proposition, at least for the victims.

I personally think a Beslan scenario is coming, and the school policy plays right into the hands of the bad guys.

OTOH, we have the right to disagree, and ultimately bear the responsibility for our decisions.

TR

Waiting on a SWAT Team is no longer even an option. Every LEO on the beat these days that I have spent time with. Has been thru some type of Active Shooter training. It's pretty much SOP. First responder on the scene grabs his Bag of extra Mags and moves to the sound of the Shooting.
Of course we will never be able to protect everyone everywhere when it comes to Active/Suicide Shooters. The biggest deterrent we have is the Armed Citizen. Lets hope new Laws are not enacted to where the Armed Citizen is no longer what these Cowards fear the most.

[Richard]

"OK - I hear you," said the deaf man to the mute.

I'll go along with the general consensus of what I'm hearing in this thread - that since we cannot depend upon anybody but ourselves to protect us from somebody else, we'll just arm everyone (as is our right) and give them the sole responsibility for protecting themselves (or whomever they think needs protecting). Sounds like a reasonable solution to me.

Richard's $.02

[Pete]

Originally Posted by Richard

"OK - I hear you," said the deaf man to the mute.

Richard, you and Dozer are telling us we have nothing to worry about. The schools, SROs, local police and SWAT elements all have a plan, it's all worked out, no problem. Our schools are safe.

Any nut that comes on campus and pulls a gun will immediately be taken out by the SRO and before the body can hit the ground the local SWAT Team is on site, out of the vehicle and riddling it with thousands of rounds. Splat - body hits the ground DRT.

But "lock down" seems to be the plan most schools are comfortable with so thats the way it's going to be.

At least until the next time...........

[Richard]

Richard, you and Dozer are telling us we have nothing to worry about. The schools, SROs, local police and SWAT elements all have a plan, it's all worked out, no problem. Our schools are safe.

Actually, we're not saying that at all. We think the problem is a very complex one - more so than many realize - with so many variants that any simple solution cannot possibly cover them all. Although the current community acceptable compromise has its flaws, we just don't think arming everybody is any better a solution - and could even make things worse.

But push come to shove - openly debating it like this makes us all think a bit harder and may give us the impetus to actually come up with that better idea we're all looking for here.

We actually are listening...

Richard's $.02

[Dozer523]

Originally Posted by Pete

Richard, you and Dozer are telling us we have nothing to worry about.
HUH? Whut makes you think I'm with him?

The schools, SROs, local police and SWAT elements all have a plan, it's all worked out, no problem. Our schools are safe.
Safe is a relative term. Nowhere has the "absence of danger". But, schools are pretty damn close. Don't do it, I hear the gyros spinning You can't argue from a particular instance to a general case -- it's in the Rules of Logic. It might be about the most prepared place there is because it has happened and it is so terrible; because the victims are so unacceptable to our society. (TR was not going all "Harry Potter" when he called the Columbine murderer those who shall not be named ever again.) What makes it safer is the preparation. The schools,have a plan; SROs, have a plan; local police, have a plan and SWAT elements all have a plan. What does the guy with just a gun have? He has just a gun. Even if it is you, Pete.

Any nut that comes on campus and pulls a gun will immediately be taken out by the SRO and before the body can hit the ground the local SWAT Team is on site, out of the vehicle and riddling it with thousands of rounds. Splat - body hits the ground DRT. Wouldn't that be sweet? Wouldn't it be really sweet if every weapon (except magic LEO ones) that came on to school grounds all the ammunition suddenly exploded? But it's not going to happen. So there is a plan. 1. You make it very hard for the POS to get near the children. 2. The REO goes after the POS. 3. Once the word is out (and it will get out) every LEO is there. And if / when #1 works the POS will be wandering the halls like a lost Freshman. All those LEOs will watch the POS on the gazillion monitors -- have you noticed that modern schools and modern prisons have a lot in common?
But "lock down" seems to be the plan most schools are comfortable with so thats the way it's going to be. It is a plan that is designed for the ones being protected. So Yup, now if we were designing a plan for say the SFA Convention. . . might be a tad different.

At least until the next time........Sadly, The Personnel assigned to the school will be changed. New suudies and intelligence will be gathered, and processed, Training will be improved or modified or added. New Equipment designed and procurred. But the Mission of schoolls will not change. Sort of like a Systems Programmed Review.

But if your kid is in MY classroom or Richard's school i bet he comes home with a cool story.

.

[perdurabo]

Having been present at a well-known school shooting (PM for details, if you care) some notes:

- LEOs selected for SRO duty seem to be... less than cream of the crop. Plus, they are often overworked and bouncing between campus and the PD.

- Shooter entered from rear entrance.

- 1 student was dead before anyone knew what was going on. An AAR documented that many students thought someone was setting firecrackers off.

- The shooter then entered a cafeteria full of students and opened fire.

- Classroom lockdowns are great, for classrooms. This shooter went for maximum damage in a commons area.

- The SRO was on campus and didn't make it to the scene on time, the shooting was over in minutes, due to the brave actions of a couple students, at least one was shot in the process, but survived.

- If the SRO was there, I don't think he'd have the training to deal with the pandemonium in the cafeteria (or any commons area), infilt, and neutralize the shooter.

- I and many others, once we heard there was a shooter didn't even know where the shooter was, exactly. At first, we heard that he was in the library. In reality, the library was being used as an informal triage point.

- While the incident seemed to go on for an hour, it was really just a few minutes... hardly any time for anyone not on the scene to help. If a good guy was there and armed at the time, it probably would've been over a lot more quickly and with less innocent blood.

Dozer, with all due respect (and there's a lot of it there), I have to take issue with your words concerning police response. I think you may be overestimating the response time, training, and mobility of an SRO and the PD.

We should be responsible and allowed to do for ourselves and our own. Having our constitutional rights infringed and being forced to rely on the police response is a losing battle.

Respectfully,
Per

Disclaimer: This is a rather emotional issue and I get a bit heated when someone advocates taking away my right to have the tools necessary to survive wherever I might need them, God forbid.

[Defender968]

Originally Posted by perdurabo

LEOs selected for SRO duty seem to be... less than cream of the crop. Plus, they are often overworked and bouncing between campus and the PD.

I would agree with your assessment from my personal experience, of the several dozen we had in my AO I can only think of one that I would want in a real fight, let alone a gun fight, the rest were a little to round, and not nearly tactically proficient enough. As a matter of fact I'm not even sure many of them went through the active shooter class we had, I can't remember ever seeing them at the classes, though maybe they had their own. Of course the tactics we were taught required a bare min of 3 officers to execute properly, with 5 being the optimal number.

In reality even if our SRO's got the active shooter course those tactics wouldn't be useful for a lone officer, especially considering most of the SRO's I knew were not the hard core LEO's who go to open range every month, and really take their shooting skills seriously.

Also for those who argue SWAT, our team generally took over an hour to mobilize and get on scene, and that was on a quick day, most times it was 2 or more hours. We don't have a full time team, but that's pretty normal for most departments outside huge cities.

An SRO is better than nothing, but they are far from the answer for an active shooter situation in a school.

At least not IMO.

[Dozer523]

Originally Posted by perdurabo

- LEOs selected for SRO duty seem to be... less than cream of the crop. Plus, they are often overworked and bouncing between campus and the PD. Don't confuse these REOs with the DARE officers. In my experience the REOs go massively "Sheepdog" fast.

If the SRO was there, I don't think he'd have the training to deal with the pandemonium in the cafeteria (or any commons area), infilt, and neutralize the shooter. Don't confuse these REOs with the DARE officers. In my experience the REOs go massively "Sheepdog" fast. Oh yeah, that confusion thing, fog of war etc. . . And you think a non-professional guy with a gun is going to have the whatever it is (since training doesn't seem to count) to do all this. What exactly happens when you pull your Glock from your ankle holster? Is it sort of like when the Green Lantern turns his ring?

- I and many others, once we heard there was a shooter didn't even know where the shooter was, exactly. At first, we heard that he was in the library. In reality, the library was being used as an informal triage point. Thank goodness all the CC dudes didn't head to the Library! Imagine some untrained dude crashing the door and seeing someone kneeling over a bloody body. EU! Sorry. . .

- While the incident seemed to go on for an hour, it was really just a few minutes... hardly any time for anyone not on the scene to help. If a good guy was there and armed at the time, it probably would've been over a lot more quickly and with less innocent blood. What if there was some better controlled access to the campus or some better controlled access to weapons? (Here we GO!) From your description, good guys were there and were effective with a bum rush. Why do you think cops like dogs? Now there is an idea I can support give the REO's dogs. Kids love dogs! Dog love kids.l

Dozer, with all due respect (and there's a lot of it there), I have to take issue with your words concerning police response. I think you may be overestimating the response time, training, and mobility of an SRO and the PD.
Per, thank you for that and please don't take my response as disrespect. It is not -- . All the arguements against the present system point to particular cases, Where the plan was unable to work be cause the POS defeated the defense. Everyone here has to know that there is no static defense that cannot be overcome with good planning, prep, equipment. That's why Target Analysis is so much fun! If the defense plan has time to work (don't do it. . . keep reading.) it will. If the POS gains the initiative and there is not time then we have an entirely different situation and we fall back on the old Infantry Center's School solution, "DOTS, Depends On The Situation".

We should be responsible and allowed to do for ourselves and our own. Wrong. Once YOUR kids show up on campus they are MY kids. If you do not like that you can try to find a private school that agrees with your position on weapons on campus -- good luck. Home Schooling might be another option.

Having our constitutional rights infringed and being forced to rely on the police response is a losing battle. The Constitution is a much bigger document then you might imagine.Respectfully,Per Backatchoo, Dozer

Disclaimer: This is a rather emotional issue and I get a bit heated when someone advocates taking away my right to have the tools necessary to survive wherever I might need them, God forbid. KKHH

Man I wish I could do that cool multi-post thingie you google-fu-ians do

[perdurabo]

Originally Posted by Dozer523

Don't confuse these REOs with the DARE officers. In my experience the REOs go massively "Sheepdog" fast.

Yeah, they weren't a DARE officer. We have SROs. And I don't want to knock them, they're good guys and professionals. In my discussions with them, it's apparent they don't receive the proper training for school shootings. I'd be surprised if they even fire their firearms with any regularity.

It seems to be a job where the chubbies and other considered-below-the-bar officers are assigned.

Oh yeah, that confusion thing, fog of war etc. . . And you think a non-professional guy with a gun is going to have the whatever it is (since training doesn't seem to count) to do all this. What exactly happens when you pull your Glock from your ankle holster? Is it sort of like when the Green Lantern turns his ring?

I think that training (especially gradually-increased stress-inducing scenarios) does count. And I think anyone carrying a gun has a personal responsibility to get as much training as they can afford. And assuming a clean record, they should have the right to carry a gun, until they prove themselves criminal or incompetent.

In the "commons area" scenario outlined, it's not going to be pretty, but if there's a good guy with a gun, it's a fighting chance against the "shooting fish in a barrel" scenario you've got when none of the good guys have guns.

I don't advocate Rambo-ism or civilians acting like SWAT guys, but I do advocate them doing what they need to do to survive. Maybe instead of working to ban firearms for law-abiding citizens, the government should offer more avenues for gun safety and real-world civilian tactical training.

What if there was some better controlled access to the campus or some better controlled access to weapons? (Here we GO!) From your description, good guys were there and were effective with a bum rush. Why do you think cops like dogs? Now there is an idea I can support give the REO's dogs. Kids love dogs! Dog love kids.l

There was rudimentary controlled access in the form of chain-linked fences. After the attack, some hefty, reinforced fences were put in that lined the entire perimeter. Unfortunately, the student parking lot is still out back and the gate is left unsecured and that's where the driving students enter.

The problem is that people get lazy and annoyed by the inconveniences of security, so gates are left ajar, etc etc. In my civilian experiences, lax security and lack of real enforcement (and punishment for violations) seems to be a never-ending problem (in the military, it wasn't, you'd just get UCMJ'd

Another key area was lack of information flow. As I said before, most folks on campus didn't really knew where the shooter was. And it appears, that for quite some time AFTER the shooter was subdued, staff and students were unaware and under the impression he was still running around loose. Complete pandemonium, tunnel vision, confusion, panic, etc, and all the psychological traits and sensory deception that go along with it.

They got lucky with a bum rush. One rusher was shot in the core area of his body and had life threatening injuries. It just happened to turn out good and he survived.

Wrong. Once YOUR kids show up on campus they are MY kids. If you do not like that you can try to find a private school that agrees with your position on weapons on campus -- good luck. Home Schooling might be another option.

Sorry, by "me and my own" I meant children under my charge. I agree with you, here.

It should be said that my stance is not for allowing armed minors. The problem with gun restriction policies and laws (for adults) is that you only hurt the good guys. The bad guy coming with killing on his mind, isn't going to be concerned about gun laws (and this oversimplifies it in some ways, I know).

Thank you (Dozer & all) for your input and opinions, good discussion with some vastly different but respectful opinions.

[The Reaper]

Originally Posted by Dozer523

Don't confuse these REOs with the DARE officers. In my experience the REOs go massively "Sheepdog" fast.

I have no idea what a REO is. I would agree with the previous comments that the School Resource Officers I have interacted with (five of them) seem to be about one step above an armed security guard. In some active shooter cases, the SROs have not engaged, but have called in the incident and held positions outside. That strikes me as pretty much the definition of sheep.

Originally Posted by Dozer523

Oh yeah, that confusion thing, fog of war etc. . . And you think a non-professional guy with a gun is going to have the whatever it is (since training doesn't seem to count) to do all this. What exactly happens when you pull your Glock from your ankle holster? Is it sort of like when the Green Lantern turns his ring?

Your continued characterizations and ad hominem attacks on those who would choose to protect themselves reflect a weak argument and prejudice. I have opted to take responsibility for protecting my family. To do that legally, I have complied with the law and received a permit. I am resentful of being lumped in with Barney Fife as you seem to believe all CCW holders are. I do not flash my gun, threaten people, keep my one bullet in my pocket, have NDs, leave my weapon in the restroom, drop it on the floor, shoot innocents,or any of the other cartoonish stereotypes you are attempting to portray. The vast majority of other CCW holders are likewise competent, especially in this area. The argument and attacks that you are making are right out of the anti-gunners' playbooks, attempting to make gun owners and CCW holders look like some sort of clownish buffoons. You seem to be opposed to the idea of citizens defending themselves. Did you also hop on the bandwagon when CCW was passed, concerned about shootouts at traffic lights and "Dodge City" incidents? What happened to those arguments? Those willing and able to be trained and licensed to safely carry a firearm should not be prevented from carrying it anywhere, as far as I am concerned. Those who cannot or who will not do so should not be permitted to. Simple.

A large part of the advantage of a viable licensing and CCW program is that like the FFDO, you never know when the door your force open may be your last. Not everyone has to be carrying. Those unwilling or unable to carry the burden do not have to. Those who are willing could serve as a deterrent to those who would invade our schools with ill-intent. I think you are overconfident in the ability of a teacher armed with a bat to defeat a determined individual with a firearm. Should you wish to try that out, I have a wiffle bat and some Sims we can test your theory with. My experience leads me to believe that you will lose. I also believe that the average teacher would do even more poorly against a shooter, even with a bat. OTOH, I suspect that my wife could probably hold a door against an armed intruder for an hour or two with a firearm.

Originally Posted by Dozer523

Thank goodness all the CC dudes didn't head to the Library! Imagine some untrained dude crashing the door and seeing someone kneeling over a bloody body. EU! Sorry. . .

Again, you attempt to paint CCW holders with a broad brush as incompetent, uneducated slobs. I think that most of us who have gotten a CCW understand that when LE arrives, you need to be identifying yourself, non-threatening, and the weapon needs to be secured. Is this this constant mischaracterization the sole basis for your arguments?

Originally Posted by Dozer523

What if there was some better controlled access to the campus or some better controlled access to weapons? (Here we GO!) From your description, good guys were there and were effective with a bum rush. Why do you think cops like dogs? Now there is an idea I can support give the REO's dogs. Kids love dogs! Dog love kids.l

Well, I guess we could make school access look more like the airport, but I do not think most people will go for that. Controlled access to my weapon is in my holster. Bum rush? By a bunch of kids against an armed intruder? Certainly an option, if no other recourse exists. I prefer that an armed adult intervene before it comes to that. BTW, a police working dog is not a good choice in a school environment.

Originally Posted by Dozer523

Per, thank you for that and please don't take my response as disrespect. It is not -- . All the arguements against the present system point to particular cases, Where the plan was unable to work be cause the POS defeated the defense. Everyone here has to know that there is no static defense that cannot be overcome with good planning, prep, equipment. That's why Target Analysis is so much fun! If the defense plan has time to work (don't do it. . . keep reading.) it will. If the POS gains the initiative and there is not time then we have an entirely different situation and we fall back on the old Infantry Center's School solution, "DOTS, Depends On The Situation".

Hide, lock the door, and wait a half hour or more for armed response or or for the shooter to run out of ammo is no real plan, as far as I am concerned. Do we advocate that for fires as well? Hide, lockdown, and wait for the firemen? The odds of running into an armed teacher, administrator, or parent with a CCW presents another risk to any nutjob planning a hit at his school. That is currently the policy on airplanes, BTW, and it seems to be working.

Originally Posted by Dozer523

Wrong. Once YOUR kids show up on campus they are MY kids. If you do not like that you can try to find a private school that agrees with your position on weapons on campus -- good luck. Home Schooling might be another option.

I disagree. My kids do not lose their identy because you are their teacher, and I do not abrogate my parental responsibility either. Ultimately, I am responsible for the security of my kids, regardless of where they are or what your title might be. And I guess I will be illegal when I visit the campus, because I care about them, and your counterparts, and don't believe a radio, or a baseball bat against a gun are fair fights. I believe that I am responsible for my actions, that I can be trusted to know when and where an armed response is appropriate, that the police cannot be everywhere at once, or guarantee anyone's security, that there are bad people out there in this world who mean to harm the innocent, that there are other good people carrying of the same mindset and skills as I, and that ultimately, we have to do what we can to protect the sheep. If they want to initiate a training and licensing program, fine. If not, some will do what they believe is right, regardless.

OT, amigo, but if I could get a voucher to cover the taxes that I pay to educate my kids (and the kids of those who do not pay taxes), they would be in a private school already, and out of the warehouse for their kids that many people seem to use the public schools for.

Originally Posted by Dozer523

The Constitution is a much bigger document then you might imagine.Respectfully,Per Backatchoo, Dozer

I agree on that one. Please, show me where the Constitution prohibits armed adults from protecting innocnets and children, wherever they might be. You might want to refresh your Constitutional knowledge with a reread focusing on the 2nd and 10th Amendments, as well as the writings of the Founding Fathers (many of whom carried a weapon on a daily basis) and the Federalist Papers. Take a look at "More Guns, Less Crime", by John Lott, while you are at it.

Originally Posted by Dozer523

Man I wish I could do that cool multi-post thingie you google-fu-ians do

Should be easy for a man with your skills and knowledge.

Have a nice day.

TR

[Richard]

Something to consider:

Back when I was teaching in The Grove - a pretty good percentage of our student's parents were gang-bangers and the only place they seemed to respect as being a 'neutral' NO WEAPONS turf in their area was on the school grounds. Maybe it was for the kids - don't know, but it was just that way.

Richard's $.02