The Guns of Spring

[Paslode]

Originally Posted by nmap

I guess what I don't understand is why there can't be some sort of win-win arrangement.

So...in that spirit...why couldn't a school offer those who carry weapons additional training? Some material on weapon retention perhaps, as well as how to deal with various scenarios, and perhaps practice with firearms. There might be opportunities to cross-train with campus police, or with local law enforcement.

Granted, the above is not a perfect solution. I doubt there are any perfect answers. But it might be better than a binary choice that permits no compromise.

You would think, but all you have to do is look into the evil eyes of someone like Diane Feinstein and you see there is no compromise.

[Defender968]

First a little disclaimer I don't know the laws of all states, but in SC the crime you can be charged with if you are caught carrying concealed in a location that is prohibited such as the school or a place that serves alcohol is trespass. As an LEO I've charged lots of young teens and drunks with trespass when they refused to leave a location, I can tell you that in SC in my AO for a charge of trespass you get a slap on the wrists and time served. I bring this up, because there are good laws and bad laws, you don't get to choose which ones they pass, but you can choose to violate bad ones so long as you are willing to pay the consequences. I consider it a bit of civil disobedience, the way I see it is I've been carrying a long time, and I'm well trained, if I get "caught" carrying in a prohibited place, it's because I've drawn my weapon and neutralized an imminent threat to me, my family, or some other innocent person, at that point, I'll be happy to take the trespass charge and go home with my life and/or the satisfaction that I saved the live of an innocent.

Just my .02

NOTE CHECK YOUR LOCAL LAWS BEFORE CARRYING IN PROHIBITED PLACES, your laws may be different than SC's laws.

[Richard]

And the beat goes on...

The American Way
Bob Herbert, NYT, 13 apr 2009

Late in the afternoon on Good Friday, in a cold, steady rain, a gray-haired 60-year-old woman sat shivering and praying on a stone step outside of 1016 Fairfield St., which is where the terrible shooting had occurred. She read from a prayer book and from time to time would take a drag on a soggy Newport cigarette. A candle flickered beside her as she prayed.

Police officers in a squad car a half-block away were keeping a close eye on the woman and the house with the boarded-up windows behind her.

Reluctant to talk at first, the woman eventually whispered, “I’m the grandmother of the kid that killed those cops.” She said her name was Catherine Scott and that she was praying for her grandson, Richard Poplawski, who is 22 and being held in the Allegheny County Jail, and for the three officers he is accused of gunning down: Stephen Mayhle, who was 29; Paul Sciullo II, 37; and Eric Kelly, 41.

The officers were killed a week and a half ago as they responded to a disturbance at the house. Police said they were met there by Poplawski, who was wearing a bulletproof vest and was armed with a variety of weapons, including an AK-47 assault rifle.

“My grandson did a terrible thing,” said Ms. Scott. “There is no mercy for what he did.”

Mercy or not, there is no end to the trauma and heartbreak caused by these horrifying, blood-drenched eruptions of gun violence, which are as common to the American scene as changes in the weather.

**snip**

This is the American way. Since Sept. 11, 2001, when the country’s attention understandably turned to terrorism, nearly 120,000 Americans have been killed in nonterror homicides, most of them committed with guns. Think about it — 120,000 dead. That’s nearly 25 times the number of Americans killed in Iraq and Afghanistan.

(cont'd) http://www.nytimes.com/2009/04/14/op...tml?ref=global

Richard's $.02

[Dozer523]

Originally Posted by The Reaper

Dozer:One dedicated defender could have made a difference, and saved a lot of lives, that day, and since. I have two kids, and would rather someone stood up and tried, than let them be slaughtered. If I am there, I will die trying to save my kids, and yours. Note that is currently illegal for me to do so with a weapon. If others do not want to take on that responsibility, they do not have to.

TR

Exactly. And, Sir, ... You could and would take the appropriate action to disarm or destroy the threat in a manner that would limit the danger to the non-combatants in the area. Only because of your training, experience and adaptability to dangerous situations. That is a skill set that is rare.
And if I was teaching your child what would you expect of me? You would demand that I do my duty. Protect the students in a predictable manner, according to the plan, until the plan changes. By locking the door, closing the blinds, pulling the drapes. Securing the students in the safest part of the classroom, moving desks and other pieces of furniture to improve the position. Keeping the children quiet and informed and ready to follow instructions instantly. Opening an outside communication line via cell phone to someone who could relay sitreps without tying up primary communications. Being prepared to evacuate via door, window, kicking out the air conditioner, knocking a hole through the floor (I always seem to be in a portable). Continiously evaluating the situation. And being prepared with the baseball and bat to defend my students if the classroom perimeter is breached. Because I (like you) will die trying to save my kids, and yours. My duty is to operate in an Anti-Terrorism mode not Counter-Terrorism.
Would I like to see you moving in my direction and armed? Yes. Once my classroom has been secured and my students are safe would I be right beside you with my baseball bat? I'm all in. Would I like to see the majority of people acting independently in this situation? no thanks.
We cannot conclude from a specific instance -- what You can do -- that in a general situation -- everyone -- should be permitted to act.

[Razor]

Originally Posted by Dozer523

Only because of your training, experience and adaptability to dangerous situations.

Are we to dismiss the potential training, experience and adaptability of others out of hand? I know a couple teachers that shoot competitively (IDPA, 3-gun, IPSC). Sure, its not "combat" training, but I'd feel comfortable with them being proxy for an armed professional if a thug is bearing down on my kids and their friends. Not all teachers are like these guys, and I'm not advocating that all teacher must carry, but for those that a) have a valid carry license (i.e., passed whatever prerequisites their state requires for everyone else to carry concealed) and b) want to carry, it seems reasonable to me to let them.

By locking the door, closing the blinds, pulling the drapes. Securing the students in the safest part of the classroom, moving desks and other pieces of furniture to improve the position. Keeping the children quiet and informed and ready to follow instructions instantly. Opening an outside communication line via cell phone to someone who could relay sitreps without tying up primary communications. Being prepared to evacuate via door, window, kicking out the air conditioner, knocking a hole through the floor (I always seem to be in a portable). Continiously evaluating the situation. And being prepared with the baseball and bat to defend my students if the classroom perimeter is breached. Because I (like you) will die trying to save my kids, and yours.

Since it seems we can't assume that most other armed adults in a school would have the training and mindset to defend their students with a firearm, I submit that what you've outlined above is a product of your experiences and training, and can not be expected of most other teachers as well. The default plan often appears to be 'lock the door, huddle in a corner and pray that the bad guy passes us by'. There is no baseball bat (oh my God, you brought a weapon into the classroom?), no fall back position, no plan to save the kids while the teacher sacrifices him/herself to maybe delay the bad guy a couple seconds before he kills the teacher then picks off the kids as they try to crawl through a broken window with jagged glass. There is no assess/reasses cycle, no regular "shooter" drills that involve local law enforcement (although they do monthly fire drills), and often no Plan B to the anemic Plan A of huddle and hope. You're projecting your expectations of planning and action onto an organization that relies on order and obedience (a school classroom), and those that live in that environment. I submit that few teachers and schools would react as you've outlined above, beyond the 'lock the door and pray' step.

My duty is to operate in an Anti-Terrorism mode not Counter-Terrorism.

You're assuming that those of us that would like to see willing teachers/administrators/parents be allowed to carry concealed expect those armed to hunt down a shooter. In my mind, anyhow, I picture an armed teacher herding his/her students out of the building through any available "hole" while providing cover. If the students can't get out (3d story window, barred window, locked door), then the teacher posts him/herself in a position to engage the bad guy coming into the room. I'm not advocating that those armed become surrogate CT forces; rather, when the bad guy breaks through the classroom door, I'd like to have him met with high velocity lead and copper instead of a desperate, unarmed teacher on a futile suicide delaying action.

[Richard]

FWIW - lots of opinions - only a few who actually have experience with this issue...and teachers and weapons of any type.

Locking the door, closing the blinds, pulling the drapes. Securing the students in the safest part of the classroom, moving desks and other pieces of furniture to improve the position. Keeping the children quiet and informed and ready to follow instructions instantly. Opening an outside communication line via cell phone to someone who could relay sitreps without tying up primary communications. Being prepared to evacuate. Continiously evaluating the situation. And being prepared to defend [yourselves] if the classroom is breached.

Some points to consider:

• Dozer is correct - and this is, in fact, pretty much the agreed upon standard which is practiced by nearly all schools - public and private - today, something teachers have accepted as a part of their job descriptions, and a reasonable and simple series of defensive actions students/families understand and are agreeable to supporting.
  
• Most schools today have on-site security or LEOs to assist administration in a variety of security/enforcement tasks.
  
• Additionally, one district in rural Texas allows faculty - after training and licensing - to maintain personal CCWs on campus because their personal site security and available faculty evaluations have determined that this would be a viable option for them.
  
• OTOH - secure the campus and the shooter just waits for recess and shoots from across the street. It's happened before.

Based on my years of experiences with these issues - immediate anonymous notification (e.g., broadcasting an innocuous sounding phrase such as "The faculty workroom is closed for maintenance until further notice" over the school's PA/telephonic/computer systems) of all campus and outside emergency security personnel, quickly securing of all occupied areas and removing potential 'targets' from the attacker's visibility, and awaiting a trained security response is reasonable, simple, and works well when practiced and applied correctly.

Richard's $.02

[The Reaper]

Originally Posted by Richard

And the beat goes on...

This is the American way. Since Sept. 11, 2001, when the country’s attention understandably turned to terrorism, nearly 120,000 Americans have been killed in nonterror homicides, most of them committed with guns. Think about it — 120,000 dead. That’s nearly 25 times the number of Americans killed in Iraq and Afghanistan.

This number is not supported by the FBI UCR homicide statistics, though the justifiable homicides make for interesting reading.

Homicides are disproportionately committed by young male minority members, usually against their peers, by a factor of more than 7 to 1. Would it be ethically and morally correct to pass new laws targeting them, rather then the inanimate tool they are using to commit their crimes?

TR

[Saoirse]

Originally Posted by Richard

And the beat goes on...

The American Way
Bob Herbert, NYT, 13 apr 2009

Late in the afternoon on Good Friday, in a cold, steady rain, a gray-haired 60-year-old woman sat shivering and praying on a stone step outside of 1016 Fairfield St., which is where the terrible shooting had occurred. She read from a prayer book and from time to time would take a drag on a soggy Newport cigarette. A candle flickered beside her as she prayed.

Police officers in a squad car a half-block away were keeping a close eye on the woman and the house with the boarded-up windows behind her.

Reluctant to talk at first, the woman eventually whispered, “I’m the grandmother of the kid that killed those cops.” She said her name was Catherine Scott and that she was praying for her grandson, Richard Poplawski, who is 22 and being held in the Allegheny County Jail, and for the three officers he is accused of gunning down: Stephen Mayhle, who was 29; Paul Sciullo II, 37; and Eric Kelly, 41.

The officers were killed a week and a half ago as they responded to a disturbance at the house. Police said they were met there by Poplawski, who was wearing a bulletproof vest and was armed with a variety of weapons, including an AK-47 assault rifle.

“My grandson did a terrible thing,” said Ms. Scott. “There is no mercy for what he did.”

Mercy or not, there is no end to the trauma and heartbreak caused by these horrifying, blood-drenched eruptions of gun violence, which are as common to the American scene as changes in the weather.

**snip**

This is the American way. Since Sept. 11, 2001, when the country’s attention understandably turned to terrorism, nearly 120,000 Americans have been killed in nonterror homicides, most of them committed with guns. Think about it — 120,000 dead. That’s nearly 25 times the number of Americans killed in Iraq and Afghanistan.

(cont'd) http://www.nytimes.com/2009/04/14/op...tml?ref=global

Richard's $.02

It irritates me to NO end when they use events such as this to further their cause to ban citizens from owning weapons. It is a great disrespect to those that have lost their lives and it makes excuses for the criminal that makes the concious decision to use a gun in their crimes!

TR, I agree with you but let us not forget...New York Times, a newspaper that has had a history of allowing their writers to report NONfacts, lies and distortions galore. I am tempted to write Bob Herbert and ask him to cite his sources for those numbers. But I seriously doubt he would respond!

[Pete]

Originally Posted by Richard

...OTOH - secure the campus and the shooter just waits for recess and shoots from across the street. It's happened before.

I seem to recall somewhere in the cobwebs of my mind where a shooter was near the edge of a campus in (IIRC) VA. He was subdued by at least one armed civilian and the press did everything it could so as to not mention the armed citizen.

By the way, don't be standing near my girls when you lock down the classroom after hearing gunshots. Their next reaction is a desk through a window and exiting. I told them I'll pay for the damage.

[The Reaper]

The shooter in the Pearl, Mississippi school massacre was stopped when the Vice Principal got a .45 from his truck (illegally on school grounds) and used it to subdue him.

Two students retreived personally owned weapons from vehicles on campus to end the Appalachian School of Law shootings.

It seems to work where people have chosen to fight back.

TR

ETA: Pete, I told my kids the same thing.

[Dozer523]

Originally Posted by Pete

By the way, don't be standing near my girls when you lock down the classroom after hearing gunshots. Their next reaction is a desk through a window and exiting. I told them I'll pay for the damage.

Good safety tip, knowing that I'll just let them out the door.
"Now, sweetie, remember what Daddy taught you. . . 3 second rushes, look before you roll, don't set a pattern when you roll, run in a zig-zag, run to cover but try not to stay up too long. Tell Daddy we're here and there are X of us, we are in the SW corner and Mr Dozer has a bat and will play wack a POS if the password is incorrect. I'm lookig forward to seeing him REALLY soon!"

[Richard]

By the way, don't be standing near my girls when you lock down the classroom after hearing gunshots. Their next reaction is a desk through a window and exiting.

Good call. Nothing like a little light, noise, and movement to attract attention to oneself and the group and to go running out in the open when you don't know where the attacker might be, to increase the level of confusion and panic, to help the teacher lose accountability of their pupils, and to add to the confusion of the security forces trying to interpret and handle the situation. Don't forget to have them wear bright clothing, scream, and wave a red bandana as they run past - works every time.

I suggest those who have little/no actual experience with schools and only have whoever's 'authoritative' version of those policies make an appointment to visit with the Principal/Asst-Principal to review and become familiar with their 'actual' emergency action plans - the reasoning behnd them, training, practice, and implementation...and then offer assistance to help fix them since everyone thinks they are broken.

Richard's $.02

[Pete]

Originally Posted by Richard

Good call. Nothing like a little light, noise, and movement to attract attention to oneself and the group and to go running out in the open when you don't know where the attacker might be, to increase the level of confusion and panic, to help the teacher lose accountability of their pupils, and to add to the confusion of the security forces trying to interpret and handle the situation. Don't forget to have them wear bright clothing, scream, and wave a red bandana as they run past - works every time. ...

I don't think the SRO will be covering the whole school grounds.

I don't think the local SWAT team will be on station in 30 seconds with fields of fire established and a cordon set up.

And for you two I didn't tell them to go running down the hallway.

And I really don't give a circular area under a rats tail about teacher acountability of students in a classroom at a time like that.

The one thing the same at the shootings at schools, malls, and workplaces is the trapped people are shot down and everybody wonders "Why didn't they run?"

And, yes, Richard I am quite familar with our local "lock down" plans and the SRO working the school my girls went to. I made a point to introduce my self to the SRO and chat with her every now and again.

[Richard]

"I see," said the blind man to the deaf man.

However...it just might be of interest to know exactly what the school's policies for such situations actually are before advising people to ignore them.

Just a thought.

Richard's $.02

[The Reaper]

Originally Posted by Richard

"I see," said the blind man to the deaf man.

However...it just might be of interest to know exactly what the school's policies for such situations actually are before advising people to ignore them.

Just a thought.

Richard's $.02

Not to add further gasoline to this discussion, but it appears to be pretty much universal to lock the classrooms, get down, call 9/11, and pray that the SWAT team gets there before the shooters do. Based on assembly and drive times, I make that at least 30 minutes at our current schools. That has been the school policies at the five schools my kids have attended.

So far, I'd say that is an iffy proposition, at least for the victims.

I personally think a Beslan scenario is coming, and the school policy plays right into the hands of the bad guys.

OTOH, we have the right to disagree, and ultimately bear the responsibility for our decisions.

TR