WP grad killed at Costco in NV because he was carrying CCW

[Utah Bob]

The Army is also slow and reluctant to admit when it makes mistakes. Pat Tillman. trainee deaths, etc.
Organizational culture can be a bad thing sometimes.
One could assume the worst or wait and see.
If mistakes were made, hopefully there will be some accountability.

Some are convinced there's stonewalling and whitewashing under way right now. I'm not convinced. Time will tell.

[Utah Bob]

Five-0, your response to Pete is an overreaction and unnecessarily rude. You need to be able to understand, if not agree with, different points of view. Like you, I have been a civilian, a QP and a cop. It has allowed me to see things from several angles.
The incidents Pete referenced were black marks on LE in many ways. He is not blasting all law enforcement in general.
We'll see how this case works out. Hopefully the police did the right thing. We don't know yet.

[nmap]

I think Pete makes some good points.

It is my opinion that there is a substantial divide between law enforcement and the general public; furthermore, that divide is increasing. Back some years ago...early 1980's...I obtained a reserve police commission for a few years. As one real law enforcement officer put it, I used to be a wanna-be. So although I cannot say (and do not say) that I was a LEO, I have had the opportunity to observe civilian-LEO interactions at close hand for some years.

One issue is that law enforcement officers and the general population seem to have little chance or inclination to mix. Even when they do mix, there appears to be little common ground for discussion. And, too, in many instances the perspective differs. I do not know why this effect seems to exist, yet it seems to.

Another issue is that LEOs are, after all, a branch of government. Government does not seem to be improving in the eyes of the general public. But law enforcement enforces the rules government creates - rules that are, at least sometimes, unpopular. Furthermore, there are hints that government itself harbors considerable corruption. Although law enforcement officers may have no involvement at all, they cannot escape (IMO) some of the taint. This is, of course, unfair - but that changes nothing.

Governmental policy is a further problem. The civilian community has a set of priorities when it comes to crime. If someone stole a citizen's car, then there is anger, feelings of loss, resentment - and a desire that someone, somewhere, solve the crime and send the perps to prison for eternity. (Yes, I exaggerate - but only a little!) However, policy seems to dictate otherwise. For example, in Texas, theft of a car with a value of less than $20,000 is a misdemeanor. The police officer is the face of government to the civilian who just lost his car. Likewise, the low priority often associated with home burglaries is, IMO, at variance with the preference of a great many citizens. Are there more important crimes? Policy dictates that there are - but the body of the citizenry may not agree.

Stress. Police work may well be a job for an angel - but we have only men and women available. We see that in this thread. The officers made a decision, based on incomplete and ambiguous information. I have no idea whether it was right or wrong, but I do know that the stakes were high and the time short. I doubt that it is possible to reduce the stress of police work - but I believe, too, that the stress will, somehow, be manifested in other behavior.

Finally, the problem may lie in human nature itself. The Stanford Prison Experience speaks to this, and I encourage those not familiar with the study to read the summary HERE. In essence, the subjects - all ordinary students - displayed sharply different personalities in a matter of days. It is, IMO, worth of reflection in light of the present discussion.

[98G]

Originally Posted by Five-O

My last post in this thred..maybe this board.

Just in case you disappear, if you have not listed to the audio tapes from Lt Col Grossman on the Bullet Proof Mind or read his books, On Combat or On Killing, you might find them of use. I think that much of the discourse on this thread stem from the level of escalation of the need for force and its effects.

Retailers count on local managers so the whole video issue is ussually a local implementation issue versus policy. And video can hurt or protect a retailer, so there is not strong view within the industry one way or the other. 6 of my patents are in this area, so I have conducted a fair bit of research on the subject. Video cameras dissuade people from stealing, but cost and maintenance and monitoring all become factors. Retailers build in a certain amount of "shrink" and do not have the time or resources to review video to catch and prosecute. So, ATMs and store cameras are often fake or just not recording.

Eventually, some level of truth will come out and I will patiently await.

[Utah Bob]

Finally, the problem may lie in human nature itself.

Nmap, that is a large part of it. The group Us vs THEM mentality is a very difficult thing to avoid. The Stanford experiment pointed out how large this problem can become and how quickly it manifests itself.

Military v Civilians
Cops v Citizens
Mets v Yankees
etc etc

If more departments adhered closer to Sir Robert Peels principles of policing there would be fewer problems but many administrators and street level cops see them as outdated and that's unfortunate.

1. The basic mission for which the police exist is to prevent crime and disorder.

2. The ability of the police to perform their duties is dependent upon public approval of police actions.

3. Police must secure the willing co-operation of the public in voluntary observance of the law to be able to secure and maintain the respect of the public.

4. The degree of co-operation of the public that can be secured diminishes proportionately to the necessity of the use of physical force.

5. Police seek and preserve public favour not by catering to public opinion but by constantly demonstrating absolute impartial service to the law.

6. Police use physical force to the extent necessary to secure observance of the law or to restore order only when the exercise of persuasion, advice and warning is found to be insufficient.

7. Police, at all times, should maintain a relationship with the public that gives reality to the historic tradition that the police are the public and the public are the police; the police being only members of the public who are paid to give full-time attention to duties which are incumbent on every citizen in the interests of community welfare and existence

8. Police should always direct their action strictly towards their functions and never appear to usurp the powers of the judiciary.

9. The test of police efficiency is the absence of crime and disorder, not the visible evidence of police action in dealing with it.

[Dad]

Friday night I was talking on the phone with one of my closest friends. After over 40 years as a police officer in Ohio, he is retiring. This thread brings back something he told me close to 30 years ago. We used to hang out on weekends (both single at the time) He told me I was his window to sanity. He felt too many police only hung out with police and began to get the us verse them mentality and he felt some actually began to forget that most people are decent. He felt the worst thing that could happen to a young police officer was to start hanging out with older cops after hours. For over 40 years he refused to take the sergeants exam. He always said he was a damn good cop and would be a absolutely horrible administrator. What he said made a lot of sense.

[Richard]

In all affairs it's a healthy thing now and then to hang a question mark on the things you have long taken for granted.

~ Bertrand Russell

It's a rash man who reaches a conclusion before he gets to it.

~ Jacob Levin

Just sayin'...

Richard

[DinDinA-2]

Excellent quotes, Richard.

Thanks

[DJ Urbanovsky]

The us vs them mentality exists everywhere - it's not a cop/citizen exclusive thing. Some people hitch their wagon to a particular star, and then it's out the window with all of their objectivity and critical thinking skills. It seems, at least to me, to have become especially prevalent these days.

Just because this guy went to WP and his dad is "somebody" doesn't mean he did what was right, and just because those other guys were cops doesn't mean that they did what was right, either. Good people fall down too. And everybody is capable of irrational behavior. Nobody is immune from "He wouldn't do that." Because you never know.

Let's not forget that eyewitnesses have a natural tendency to miss-remember the events they witnessed, especially if stress was involved. The brain will fill in missing information so that things make sense. Sometimes, the line of questioning can induce witnesses to miss-remember. This works the same with witnesses for both sides.

I'm curious... How did anybody know that he was carrying a concealed weapon? Concealed means concealed.

[Leozinho]

Originally Posted by Pete

So where are the videos from inside the store? Not working? Mighty convenient for Costco and the manager.

Seems the manager is the big question mark in this story. The story was he was rowdy inside, throwing stuff around. Anybody witness to the "crazy man inside"?

As you may know, what the tapes from inside the store show will have no relevance on whether the police are found to have acted appropriately. The police will only be judged on the information they had or believed at the time, not what was later determined to be true. They can't be judged with 20/20 vision of hindsight. However, the dispatch log, which paints a picture of an emotionally disturbed person, would be relevant, as the officers would have heard the radio calls prior to the shooting.

(I supposed the Costco employees, if it turns out they lied about Scott's behavior inside the store, may have set themselves up for some civil liability, but that's way outside my lane.)

Originally Posted by Pete

But there are a few things that trouble me. The store was asked to clear everybody out while the cops are outside. The individual is coming out with the other cutomers, peaceful like it would seem, since nobody was running and screaming, so he is with a group of people and the cops are the ones who start the ruckus.

Three guys screaming instructions in a crowd - seems it might take everybody a few seconds to react. WTF is going on.

Your version of how the incident started is complete conjecture. The fact is you and I don't know what happened there, to include how officers first made contact with Scott and how the encounter escalated from there. You've made a lot out of SWAT cops screaming commands in a previous thread and mentioned it in this one. It is clear you are biased against police. So be it, but try not to let the bias cloud your reasoning and the things you write.

[Pete]

Originally Posted by Leozinho

....... You've made a lot out of SWAT cops screaming commands in a previous thread and mentioned it in this one. It is clear you are biased against police. So be it, but try not to let the bias cloud your reasoning and the things you write.

And you could not be more wrong. I am not biased against police.

I am biased against a number of people shouting commands and expecting everybody to 1. Understand what they are all saying and 2. Comply with with what they are all saying - immediately.

[Team Sergeant]

Originally Posted by Leozinho

As you may know, what the tapes from inside the store show will have no relevance on whether the police are found to have acted appropriately. The police will only be judged on the information they had or believed at the time, not what was later determined to be true. They can't be judged with 20/20 vision of hindsight. However, the dispatch log, which paints a picture of an emotionally disturbed person, would be relevant, as the officers would have heard the radio calls prior to the shooting.

(I supposed the Costco employees, if it turns out they lied about Scott's behavior inside the store, may have set themselves up for some civil liability, but that's way outside my lane.)



Your version of how the incident started is complete conjecture. The fact is you and I don't know what happened there, to include how officers first made contact with Scott and how the encounter escalated from there. You've made a lot out of SWAT cops screaming commands in a previous thread and mentioned it in this one. It is clear you are biased against police. So be it, but try not to let the bias cloud your reasoning and the things you write.

Originally Posted by Pete

And you could not be more wrong. I am not biased against police.

I am biased against a number of people shouting commands and expecting everybody to 1. Understand what they are all saying and 2. Comply with with what they are all saying - immediately.

five-o,
See the posts above, two men disagreeing without being assholes. We already have enough assholes on this board. Argue/disagree nice or take it elsewhere. This is not a request.
Team Sergeant

[18C4V]

Originally Posted by Pete

And you could not be more wrong. I am not biased against police.

I am biased against a number of people shouting commands and expecting everybody to 1. Understand what they are all saying and 2. Comply with with what they are all saying - immediately.

you just described every service person whose serving in OIF/OEF who doesn't have the benefit of a translator in a split second MDMP.

[akv]

FWIW, from a civilian perspective just as Kaplan mentioned a growing disconnect between the civilian community and the military, IMHO there is also a growing disconnect between civilians and LEO based on lack of community interaction. I don't know if it's demographics etc., but my question for LEO is has the interaction demographic changed? You read about officers in the past knowing, and being known in their patrol areas, is this just rose tinted nostalgia? I ask because IMHO , perhaps because I live in a big city, these days it seems the only community interaction a law abiding citizen has with the LEO is negative, traffic violations etc.

I was able to interact at a shooting class last month, with a bunch of fellow students who are LEO in GA. There were one or two who were bullies on power trips, but the vast majority were nice, regular guys who I enjoyed getting to know immensely, and would fish or have a beer with.

Interestingly enough the most impressive officer was this very quiet local Marshall who was a dead shot. He echoed some of the notions folks here have mentioned. He was actually critical of Col. Grossman, describing him as a guy with the gift of gab, but very little real world experience who is taken as gospel. To him the sheep dog analogy fosters a sense of entitlement and us vs. them which he said was a trap for his profession.

The truth has a way of coming out, and I hope justice is served here.

[The Reaper]

Originally Posted by akv

He was actually critical of Col. Grossman, describing him as a guy with the gift of gab, but very little real world experience who is taken as gospel....

I have been saying that for a while.

Nice guy with a good idea for a short story, not sure it warrants what it has become or that he is fully qualified to present the premise.

TR