Marines to Take Over Responsibilities For Training Foreign Forces

NousDefionsDoc · 03-26-2005, 01:40

From Small Wars Journal

http://www.nationaldefensemagazine.o...marines_to.htm

April 2005

Marines to Take Over Responsibilities For Training Foreign Forces

by Sandra I. Erwin

The Marine Corps will set up a specialized unit dedicated to training foreign troops. The unit—scheduled to begin operations on October 1—will be staffed by up to 400 Marines. It will supplement the training program that had been solely the responsibility of the U.S. Special Operations Command.

By creating this unit, the Marine Corps assumes a permanent role in the training of foreign troops. Previously, Marines had done this on an ad hoc basis. They helped train, for example, military forces in Georgia, Chad and Niger, noted Gen. Michael W. Hagee, commandant of the Marine Corps.

SOCOM sought help from the Marine Corps in this area, Hagee told reporters. The decision to invest in a permanent training unit further recognizes that U.S. forces ultimately benefit from working more closely with foreign troops, Hagee said.

“We believe that this is one of the most important things to do,” he said. “People usually think of special operations forces as the ‘high-end’ operations.” But improving the training of friendly foreign troops eventually could pay off by preventing U.S. military involvement, Hagee suggested. “If we can do much better in ‘phase zero,’ better prepare foreign militaries to handle their own situations, maybe we won’t have to do phases one, two and three.”

The Marines in the training unit will serve in rotations, with the expectation that they will spread their knowledge throughout the Corps when they return to the operational force, Hagee said.

“We never had a unit stood up and devoted to this,” he said. “We think it will help throughout the Marine Corps. Individuals will rotate in and out, and will increase intelligence and knowledge of foreign cultures throughout the Marine Corps.”

The training unit will be based on the East Coast, although the specific location has not yet been determined.

D9 (RIP) · 03-26-2005, 02:22

There was an article by Robert Kaplan in last month's Atlantic Monthly (link to article preview here) covering a group of Marines doing FID work in Niger. I wondered at the time whether this was the tip of an iceberg. Apparently so.

Whatever the reasons for this, or the changes it portends in the SOF community, I'm sure the Marines will put their best foot forward. Maybe this will finally be a shoe in for the USMC into a solid role with the SOF community, and at the same time free up some other SOF units for other things.

**Jack Moroney (RIP)** · 03-26-2005, 06:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by D9

Whatever the reasons for this, or the changes it portends in the SOF community, I'm sure the Marines will put their best foot forward. Maybe this will finally be a shoe in for the USMC into a solid role with the SOF community, and at the same time free up some other SOF units for other things.

While I am sure that the USMC will do a good job and has done this before, do not assume that this is a SOF mission. Not all trainers or training missions are created equal. This does not mean that the USMC will be doing UW work nor does it mean that they are heavily involved in FID in the classic definition as SF sees or executes the mission. I doubt very seriously that a 400 man unit will be area oriented, culturally prepared or language qualified to the same degree as SF units are for their target countries. Now that is not to say that all SF MTTs/Training missions fall or fell into that category either, but that was a problem with lack of command focus and proper utilization of the force. The fact is that SF are the best trainers in the community and have been used to train everything from ROTC to SWAT teams in what I would consider to be missions not best suited for their talents. The fact of the matter is that while SF units may still be the best to perform these missions and especially in a global scout role to prepare future battlefields and space there are just to few of them and other missions are taking higher priority right now.

Jack Moroney

Petelink · 03-26-2005, 07:42

This seems like a very overdue extension to the administration's foreign policy. The best way to spread stability and democracy to unstable nations is to engage them. It's always seemed strange to me that this was not a bigger priority throughout the conventional military. It might even make foreign governments more comfortable to host conventional units versus special operations forces.

NousDefionsDoc · 03-26-2005, 10:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by Petelink

This seems like a very overdue extension to the administration's foreign policy. The best way to spread stability and democracy to unstable nations is to engage them. It's always seemed strange to me that this was not a bigger priority throughout the conventional military. It might even make foreign governments more comfortable to host conventional units versus special operations forces.

What?

**Peregrino** · 03-26-2005, 10:26

Some of us in 7th Gp (edit - with 7th Gp backgrounds, got to remember I'm retired now) still remember the experiments using RA drill instructors in El Salvador.

Personally, I'm sure the Marines will be more successful. After all, they've got an illustrious history of meeting their challenges (and the drive not to let that heritage down!). Time to dust off the Haiti and Nicaragua AARs from the 30's. This is one time I'm glad there's somebody of quality to step up to the plate and grab a share of the pie. It's not like there isn't enough to go around. FWIW - Peregrino

NousDefionsDoc · 03-26-2005, 10:34

I have a mixed opinion about this, mostly because of something I saw years ago. In my opinion, and it is just that, the very thing that makes the USMC the USMC also gets them in trouble at times and can be a HUGE pain in the ass for the rest of the Spec Ops Community. The Marine leadership has been known to make claims regarding this type of work on The Hill. And usually immediately after, the community has to go through (again) the process of "proving" to the meddlers with the checkbooks that every round peg is indeed in their own little round hole.

Everybody thinks they can do FID. After all and as in so many things, the omote appears to be very simple. You have skills, just go impart them. And as in so many things, they never truly understand the ura - they don't even know it is there. They don't understand that it has taken 60 years and thousands of little lessons learned and mistakes and lives to make it look "easy". SF wasn't given the little round hole of FID - SF carved that hole with its teeth.

Now there are scenarios that one may look at and say, "Well, we don't need SF troops to do that." Anybody can teach these guys how to march, BRM, etc. But experience has shown otherwise. I will not name the specifics I saw during my time so as not to start a pissing contest with those of other units or services.

The operational tempo waxes and wains. This will open a Pandora's Box of claims and justifying down the road on the next wain. And USASOC will likely lose a pound of flesh because they allowed copies to be made of the keys to that door. Lessons already learned will have to be re-learned and at the end of the day, nothing will have changed.

Trip_Wire (RIP) · 03-26-2005, 12:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by NousDefionsDoc

I have a mixed opinion about this, mostly because of something I saw years ago. In my opinion, and it is just that, the very thing that makes the USMC the USMC also gets them in trouble at times and can be a HUGE pain in the ass for the rest of the Spec Ops Community. The Marine leadership has been known to make claims regarding this type of work on The Hill. And usually immediately after, the community has to go through (again) the process of "proving" to the meddlers with the checkbooks that every round peg is indeed in their own little round hole.

Everybody thinks they can do FID. After all and as in so many things, the omote appears to be very simple. You have skills, just go impart them. And as in so many things, they never truly understand the ura - they don't even know it is there. They don't understand that it has taken 60 years and thousands of little lessons learned and mistakes and lives to make it look "easy". SF wasn't given the little round hole of FID - SF carved that hole with its teeth.

Now there are scenarios that one may look at and say, "Well, we don't need SF troops to do that." Anybody can teach these guys how to march, BRM, etc. But experience has shown otherwise. I will not name the specifics I saw during my time so as not to start a pissing contest with those of other units or services.

The operational tempo waxes and wains. This will open a Pandora's Box of claims and justifying down the road on the next wain. And USASOC will likely lose a pound of flesh because they allowed copies to be made of the keys to that door. Lessons already learned will have to be re-learned and at the end of the day, nothing will have changed.

I agree with what you said here.

**The Reaper** · 03-26-2005, 12:36

Agree with NDD.

I was at Special Forces Command when the Air Force stood up a "FID Squadron".

First thing they did was to pass a tasker down through USSOCOM tasking SF to provide them with SF personnel to translate, interact, and stay out in the boonies with the indig while they returned every night to their hotels in the capital cities.

Some people just don't get it.

You can have language skills, and subject matter expertise, and still not be able to do FID.

TR

Mac · 03-26-2005, 14:48

CJTF-HOA had some of the Marines teaching Djaboutians, and our FORCEPRO, 3rd Inf. (Old Gaurd) were training Ethiopians. Granted, most of this was basic soldier skills (IMT, BRM, movement to conact, IAD's, patrolling, land nav, etc.). I did get a chance to observe some of it. Mixed feelings about it. While the troops who were teaching, for the most part, seemed to have perpared the classes well and could walk thru it, there were some difficulties with the native troops. Not that they would try to make it difficult, but I saw alot of difficulties with troops who didnt understand the nuiances of getting the locals to understand and cooperate, let alone learn and excell. Language was not the only barrier. Teaching them takes a level of instructor development and maturity that PFC Snuffy (God bless him) just doesnt have. The older NCOs had a better time with it, but I still saw problems.
We have to send men to school to be able to teach US troops (ie- Drill Sgts.), why should we expect troopers with no experience or training to excell at FID? Dealing with foreign troops, who may not even be cooperative, isnt something you can learn through hip pocket training. I can understand the shortages in SF for these missions, especially with the commitments that have taxed everyone, but short term solutions often lead to long term problems. If its GOING to happen (right or wrong), I would think (or hope) the Marines will have given these men at least some instructor training, language assests, cutural awareness, and FID doctrine. I dont agree that this is the answer. The professions who reside here were the ones who made the mistakes, learned from them and taught those who came after the right way to do it. Is it really necessary to repeat those again?

Just the .02 from a non-tabbed observer.....

Psywar1-0 · 03-26-2005, 15:15

I forsaw something like this back when they let the Marines in on the MTI mission in 95.

I continue to see it today when you have a FID JTF here in my back yard that has almost zero SOF members other than CA and Psyop.

As much as I love my Bros from PR, just cause you have a ranger tab and speak the lingo, perhaps even spent a tour at SOA, you havnt got the institutional exp to do the job.

ktek01 · 03-26-2005, 15:35

From what I saw first hand, in my AO anyway. First the AD Army trained the local ICDC unit, then they moved and the Marines came in and took over that mission, a few months later they moved an Army NG unit took over that mission. There was an ODA in the same area, but they were kept busy doing other things.

While this allowed the ODA to carry out another mission, the lack of continuity seemed to greatly slow the pace at which that ICDC unit was brought up to speed. New trainers every few months, most having no previous FID experience, each having to learn when they hit the ground, and then moving to another AO just about the time they were starting to get the AO and the mission figured out. I will say that the Soldiers and Marines did an outstanding job with what they had, but I think it that ICDC unit would have been brought up to speed a lot quicker if they had an ODA training them, or at least the same trainers for the duration of their training.

504PIR · 03-26-2005, 18:01

Not to bring up old stuff, but I recall not to long ago USMC was standing up Det 1. They were going be apart of Spec Ops, spent a bunch of money and stood up a great bunch of operators. Well they are disbanding now.....

You can go back to the CAP in Veitnam-very effective program...disbanded, correct me if I'm wrong within 36 months of standing up.

Marine Raiders...Same deal

Marine Parachute Bn...disbanded as well

Force Recon is always being downsized, increased, intergrated and sometimes fighting for its existance in the Corp.

Marines are a great bunch of fighters, but I believe that the leaderships is really only interested in being a predominantly Infantry force with a seaborne forced-entry capabilty. The main reason they have their airwings is to support that landing force. If it does not support that mission or somehow connected to it-their leadership don't want it.

I'm sure they will gladly make copies of themselves ie ROK or Thai Marine Corp as an example. But FID as big part of their mission, I don't think so. It may be this commandant's (General Hagee) pet project...well Det 1 was the last commandant's pet project too.

Thats how I see it. Back to lurking

D9 (RIP) · 03-26-2005, 18:24

I agree with all that was said. Not the best role for the USMC, and I think there will be the usual friction as a branch that is obsessed with tradition and the status quo has to move into what is traditionally unconventional (at least my USMC standards).

When I said the Marines will put their best foot forward, I should have clarified. I mean that the Marines who get to do this assignment, I would imagine, will be extremely eager for the chance. At least when I was in the USMC, the rank and file of the USMC infantry salivated over this kind of thing all the time. I have no doubt that anything like this will meet with the usual retarding resistance from the USMC leadership.

Not saying they'll do it as well as SF at all, just saying they'll try their best as this would be a peach assignment for most jugheads I would think.

NousDefionsDoc · 03-26-2005, 18:30

D9, I don't think anybody misunderstood your post. I have no doubt you are correct - they are professionals, they will put their best foot forward at all times. It is not the troops in the trenches that are the issue. I could take a Marine Rifle squad and in a year's time, make acceptable LATAM FID guys out of them. Will they be given that year with somebody that has done it and really wants them to succeed?

504 - where did you hear Det 1 was being disbanded? The rumor I heard is the opposite.