What would another 4 years look like under Obama and the Democrats?....see California

[USANick7]

http://www.culpepergop.org/2012/10/0...ee-california/


You have to like Victor Davis Hanson...I highly recommend his book Carnage and Culture...great response to Guns, Germs and Steel.

[glebo]

Originally Posted by Broadsword2004

This is another debating point I wish Romney had hit Obama over the head with. You have the largest economy in the nation in the toilet because of adhering to the very policies that Obama has been applying at the national level. Then you have Texas, the second-largest economy, adhering to the policies Romney is calling for, and it is one of the biggest job creators in the nation.

Now if that's not driving the point home, if he uses it...I don't know what will.

Great comparison...

[tonyz]

Agreed - Broadsword2004 makes a great comparison. The debacle that is the state of California's fiscal situation is but a microcosm of liberal fiscal policy in action. Despite all the wonderful advantages enjoyed by California...decades of tax and spend policies are driving it to bankruptcy.

[USANick7]

Originally Posted by glebo

Now if that's not driving the point home, if he uses it...I don't know what will.

Great comparison...

Well that has always seemed to be the most frustrating point...we have examples of what happens when liberal vs. conservative policies are followed in plenty of places.

It's not that difficult to account for other considerations and present a fairly consistent pattern. Leftist polices not only yield poor results in mixed areas (by mixed I mean among areas which are comprised of both conservative and liberal leaning individuals) but even in areas where the vast majority of people are liberals.

Even in liberal bastions like Sweden you are seeing greater privatization of services precisely because they eventually reach a breaking point. It flies against the liberal mindset that centralized economic control and redistribution would produce better corporate results if only people could be made to understand them better and put aside their own narrow self interest.

Many places in Europe are held up as examples to Americans by our own left as demonstrations of a better "community spirit" with little to no consideration for what that actually means and what sort of results it has produced.

California is our own little experiment of what happens when leftist ideology is permitted to dominate. We have reached a tipping point in CA where producing people have given up attempting to fight the system and are simply relocating at the same time that non producing people are pouring in. It is a guarantee that when faced with this predicament, California will not attempt to change its course of action but will rather look to the federal government to subsidize its poor policy decisions at the expense of those states who have done a far better job managing their resources through a freer system.

I wonder if the broader lesson will actually be understood by liberals... their polices fail to work, not because people oppose them...but ultimately because they are dependent upon the hard work and efforts of those whom they harm. So while a society of limited government conservatives can coexist and thrive, a society of central planning leftists eventually pushes out the very thing it depends upon for its sustenance.

In theory... the worst thing that could ever happen to the liberal state...is for them to win the philosophical argument in the minds of producers and convert them, thus killing the host that makes their existence possible.

just my .02

[Badger52]

Originally Posted by tonyz

Despite all the wonderful advantages enjoyed by California...decades of tax and spend policies are driving it to bankruptcy.

I liked the high-desert country as a kid, and there was a real cool lagoon down by La Jolla great for snorkeling.

What are the wonderful advantages nowadays? (I left in '69)
I think the car has already plummeted off Topanga Canyon Rd.

[USANick7]

Originally Posted by Badger52

What are the wonderful advantages nowadays? (I left in '69)
I think the car has already plummeted off Topanga Canyon Rd.

Natural resources, great coastline and ports, attractive scenery that attracts people, fertile soil, etc...

Give Hong Kong the same resources and it would be incredible to watch...

[tonyz]

Originally Posted by Badger52

I liked the high-desert country as a kid, and there was a real cool lagoon down by La Jolla great for snorkeling.

What are the wonderful advantages nowadays? (I left in '69)
I think the car has already plummeted off Topanga Canyon Rd.

Point well taken - but agriculture, manufacturing, mining, fishing...even the holliwierd industry generates substantial jobs and revenue. Now factor in the energy potenial off the coast...California is rapidly becoming the poster child for mismanaging assets.

ETA: USANick7 just beat me while I was typing - CA has tremendous advantages - I'll call his Hong Kong and raise you a Singapore.

[Pete]

Somebody somewhere wrote about the difference between European vs US government spending. We've touched on it a few times here.

At first our spending was pretty much local, state and federal. You wanted another Fire Truck or Local Park you paid for it. Same with the states. The Feds? Well, they were kept at the Federal level.

The basic difference is that Europe is somewhat like the US states without the Feds. Each country in Europe stands alone (discounting the EU) and it's finances are out in the open - and most of them are in the toilet.

In the US state and local spending is being masked by the Federal Government through programs and grants. 16 million here, 20 million to this school system, 20 million over there and 15 million way over there. The Feds are propping up local and state government all over the country with checks written on an overdrawn account.

When our crunch comes it will be worse than Europe's.

[Sigaba]

Hanson's tidy analysis doesn't mention a key factor in California's decline: a referendum/initiative/recall process that allows the electorate to bypass the legislative process to enact spending bills that impact the state's economy without voters having any idea of the long term impact. He wants to blame this group or another for the sorry state of public education in California, but illegal immigration and the teachers' union are only part of the puzzle. The other part is the role of Proposition 13--a darling of populist Conservatives--in gutting education budgets. (I was in the LAUSD when it was passed and was one step ahead of its rippling impact from the fourth grade until I graduated from Cal.)

Does Hansen pay himself royalties for rehashing his earlier editorials without really contributing to the debate or playing an active role in forming viable solutions? (If he so desired, he could write an awesome piece breaking down support for the key spending initiatives that have helped to bankrupt the state. Then again, such a piece would risk turning a critical eye on his populist minded readers. I guess the mission of historians to tell truth to power only goes so far.)

Hanson was, at one time, a damn good professional academic historian who moved a debate or two forward by light years but that was long ago. Lewis Gould used to lambaste historians who "closed shop" after reaching a certain level of success on a regular basis. He probably didn't have Hanson in mind but he's increasingly a good example of what the man meant.

Other than that, a great editorial, the blogosphere at its finest.

(Clearly, the caffeine buzz I get from drinking Pepsi isn't working for me. I'm generally not this bitter.)

[Pete]

Originally Posted by Sigaba

Hanson's tidy analysis doesn't mention a key factor in California's decline..........................

So the problem is "They are not spending enough"?

The propositions - in one form or another - by reducing spending or tax increases - was to limit the growth of government. But the government still got bigger with more unon folks and better pensions - not to mention the crazy earth firsters.

It is a fact - Not all people can work for local, state and federal governments. Somebody has to be out in the private sector turning $1 into $2 so it can be taxed to feed the beast.

Even here in Fayetteville when they have a surplus there is no talk of lowering taxes - just "Hey, look at the new programs we can start."

Tax revaluation? Every time revaluation comes around citizens call for it to be revenue nuetral. In otherwords the tax rate is reduced to match the budget - but no - "More free money, let's start some new programs."

[Sigaba]

Originally Posted by Pete

So the problem is "They are not spending enough"?

The propositions - in one form or another - by reducing spending or tax increases - was to limit the growth of government. But the government still got bigger with more unon folks and better pensions - not to mention the crazy earth firsters.

It is a fact - Not all people can work for local, state and federal governments. Somebody has to be out in the private sector turning $1 into $2 so it can be taxed to feed the beast.

Even here in Fayetteville when they have a surplus there is no talk of lowering taxes - just "Hey, look at the new programs we can start."

Tax revaluation? Every time revaluation comes around citizens call for it to be revenue nuetral. In otherwords the tax rate is reduced to match the budget - but no - "More free money, let's start some new programs."

Pete--

The point I am making is that the proposition process, introduced by John Randolph Haynes, allows voters to make important decisions about how the state government does or does not spend money without doing any research or having debates.

On its face, Proposition 13 seemed like a great idea because it cut property taxes and that meant more money in families pockets. But how much of this saved money did families have to spend to make up for the slashing of the LAUSD's transportation budget? Fewer school buses and shorter routes means more parents leaving work early to pick up their kids which means more cars on the road during rush hour which means higher gas prices, more smog, and more pot holes.*

Meanwhile, time that kids had previously spent studying/playing becomes time waiting for a ride or finding a way home. Now, hours that had once been family time clashing against study time. As the budget cuts also impact the quality of instruction and educational technology, kids are less self sufficient and need more help from their folks. "Whoop whoop whoop," is the sound of helicopter parents coming to the rescue, and look how that dynamic is impacting American civilization.

More recently, propositions have been floated to foot the bill for projects that, again, on the face, seem like great ideas (three strikes, more jails, no employer contributions to political campaigns from employees' paychecks) but where's the informed, respectful debate that increases citizens' civic awareness of the 'big picture'?

__________________________________________________ ___
*Traffic in California, especially in So Cal beggars the imagination of people who don't experience it first hand on a daily basis. Some years ago, I had to go to Chicago for my job. As the shuttle crawled from the airport towards downtown, the driver remarked "Traffic is really bad today." Some of the passengers chimed in that they'd never seen anything like it. I did a double take to make sure I was seeing the same thing (two lanes moving slowly, one lane stop and go, a fourth pretty much jammed) before replying "We'd KILL to have traffic this good back home."

[Last hard class]

Originally Posted by Broadsword2004

This is another debating point I wish Romney had hit Obama over the head with. You have the largest economy in the nation in the toilet because of adhering to the very policies that Obama has been applying at the national level. Then you have Texas, the second-largest economy, adhering to the policies Romney is calling for, and it is one of the biggest job creators in the nation.

Fact check time:

California is the 2nd largest job creator in 2012 ( behind Texas). It's trending to take over Texas before the end of the year. This, despite the large decrease in Government payrolls. And I am OK with that.



LHC

[Pete]

Originally Posted by Sigaba

.....The point I am making is that the proposition process, introduced by John Randolph Haynes, allows voters to make important decisions about how the state government does or does not spend money without doing any research or having debates. ..............."

Teachers - the ones who get the axe first.

The largest employer in our county after the military is the Cumberland County Public School system with just under 7,000 employees. With a school population of around 53,000 that works out to one employee for every 7.57 students.

With classroom sizes at 14 or more at least 50% of the employees do not work as teachers. The school system calls that 50% staff & support.

Yet every time the school system does not get it's DEMANDED money it lays off the teachers. So parents raise hell, the money is raised and the system hires one more teacher and one more "support & staff".

Maybe if the taxpayers would starve the beast and force it to fire some "support & staff" they could put more money into teachers and the classrooms.

Starve the Beast

When the High Sheriff of Cumberland County does not get his DEMANDED budget he layes of the school crossing guards - nothing else just the guards - and the first day of school the parents raise hell and the Sheriff gets his money for the SWAT team.

Starve the Beast.

And don't get me started on bussing - for that you need to follow the Wake County Circus.

[Sigaba]

Originally Posted by Pete

Teachers - the ones who get the axe first.

The largest employer in our county after the military is the Cumberland County Public School system with just under 7,000 employees. With a school population of around 53,000 that works out to one employee for every 7.57 students.

With classroom sizes at 14 or more at least 50% of the employees do not work as teachers. The school system calls that 50% staff & support.

Yet every time the school system does not get it's DEMANDED money it lays off the teachers. So parents raise hell, the money is raised and the system hires one more teacher and one more "support & staff".

Maybe if the taxpayers would starve the beast and force it to fire some "support & staff" they could put more money into teachers and the classrooms.

Starve the Beast

When the High Sheriff of Cumberland County does not get his DEMANDED budget he layes of the school crossing guards - nothing else just the guards - and the first day of school the parents raise hell and the Sheriff gets his money for the SWAT team.

Starve the Beast.

And don't get me started on busing - for that you need to follow the Wake County Circus.

I need to type this very quietly as my housemate's closest friends and SO work in public education and I almost got my head ripped off for offering the following POV. (This isn't to say that the people who heard this disagreed in principle, but that they understood the implications WRT their union.)

IMO, the first thing that needs to be done is to find ways to evaluate teachers for their effectiveness at teaching rather than seniority, the ability to pass the buck, and political gamesmanship.

[Paragrouper]

Originally Posted by Last hard class

Fact check time:

California is the 2nd largest job creator in 2012 ( behind Texas). It's trending to take over Texas before the end of the year. This, despite the large decrease in Government payrolls. And I am OK with that.



LHC

Which is a good thing because they are also ranked 49th for unemployment. Source

As far as overtaking Texas, well Texas has the 4th fastest growing economy--California is ranked 10th. Source

Of course, I may be biased