Battle of Stalingrad: A culture of accuracy

[BOfH]

I just finished watching the History Channels Battlefield Detectives on the Battle of Stalingrad. Most historians point to "General Winter" as the decisive factor in Germanys defeat there, however, the HC points out several other major factors, one of which I find quite interesting, especially in its modern day application.

According to the HC, during the 1930's, Russia had a civilian marksmanship program in which one could qualify as a marksman(or woman, there were several well known female snipers in the Red Army during this time) and be awarded a sharpshooter's badge. The premise is that this "culture of accuracy" created large pool of sharpshooters which the Red Army was able to draw on during the battle, especially after German ordnance turned Stalingrad into a snipers playground, and were know to inflict heavy casualties on the invading troops, ultimately forcing their surrender.

Now we all know that our founding fathers didn't take this country by sugar coated dialog or piles or cash(as some would like you to believe), it was done by the accurate force of arms and driven by an unfailing belief of a balanced and tolerant nation in which one could live and prosper. Just as these civilian turned combat snipers fought tenaciously to protect their homeland from a fascist invader, the modern day application, as I see it, is that same civilian culture of accuracy, employed to protect the framework upon which this country was founded from those who wish to undermine and ultimately destroy it.

My .02, YMMV

[Richard]

Interesting analyses.

Weather, terrain, strategy, tactics, adequate resupply, historical cultural animosities, and the psychological tenacity associated with the "defense of the Rodina" are hugely important in understanding the Battle of Stalingrad - individual marksmanship not so much when the MP40 and PPSH were key individual weapons in the fighting there.

And so it goes...

Richard

[longrange1947]

The Civilian Marksmanship Program was started for the same purposes, only the liberal environment, that demonizes guns, has destroyed the civilain ability to shoot in many cases.

Look at the number of schools that had shoot clubs in the 60s and now. Look at what will happen if you bring your favorite gun with you so that you can go hunting or shooting after school.

The number of road blocks to civilian marksmanship, while not total, is formidable.

[Richard]

HSJROTC marksmanship programs are still common here in Texas. Here are a couple of examples - http://www.7thbattalion.com/teams.htm http://pearlandjrotc.org/teams/

Marksmanship (both rifle and shotgun) is also a popular subject in Boy Scouts around these parts.

Richard

[The Reaper]

Dubious claim.

The Germans had very active pre-war shooting clubs as well.

I would say that the winter, the Red Army's shorter lines, the failure of the Luftwaffe to control the skies and to deliver supplies, the ruthlessness of Stalin (in the meatgrinder of the largest MOUT battle in history), and the intransigence of Hitler in denying his generals the freedom of maneuver were much larger factors than any marksmanship training.

TR

[Dusty]

The propaganda played a big part in the successful defense of Stalingrad, IMO.

[mojaveman]

The fighting in the city of Stalingrad actually involved many small assualt groups on both sides doing a lot of close quarters battle with submachine guns and grenades. I could see marksmanship counting a little more in some of the other battles that took place on the steppes of Russia such as Kursk.

[Peregrino]

Originally Posted by Richard

HSJROTC marksmanship programs are still common here in Texas. Here are a couple of examples - http://www.7thbattalion.com/teams.htm http://pearlandjrotc.org/teams/

Marksmanship (both rifle and shotgun) is also a popular subject in Boy Scouts around these parts.

Richard

Not discounting the degree of skill required to compete successfully in Air Rifle but I would respectfully submit that HSJROTC marksmanship programs are not what they used to be. I got my start in competitive marksmanship in JROTC - with real rifles, albeit .22s. The current Air Rifle program is a sad commentary on the gradual retreat away from raising a new generation of shooters. I don't know when the last time you looked at the scouting marksmanship programs but they too have sanitized their offerings imposing restrictions and instituting requirements that make it more difficult to provide a "sanctioned" program.

As for Stalingrad - History is written by the winners. TR has addressed it sufficiently from a military perspective. It was a historic/heroic battle. The Russians won. Their propoganda machine used that win to motivate the Russian people and kick start the campaigns that eventually defeated NAZI Germany.

FWIW - Most European countries had active civilian marksmanship programs during that period. And if you want another perspective of the vaunted Russain marksmen, you should examine the historical accounts of the 39-40 Winter War against the Finns.

[BOfH]

All good points, I can't reply to everyone at the moment(got a flooded basement to deal with), however, the intent of my OP wasn't to say "Civilian marksmanship was the crucial factor in turning the battle", I am well aware that there were many, many other factors(HC points out several others: clothing, steel helmets vs (fake) fur hats, the fact that malnutrition and refeeding syndrome killed almost as many Germans as the Russians did, Russian PR playing up the snipers and demoralizing the Germans etc.) involved; more to the point, the intent was to underscore how civilian marksmanship drove a segment of people in defending their country, and to compare/contrast that against our current anti gun/anti self defense legislative culture that so heavily pervades our country.

[greenberetTFS]

Originally Posted by longrange1947

The Civilian Marksmanship Program was started for the same purposes, only the liberal environment, that demonizes guns, has destroyed the civilain ability to shoot in many cases.

Look at the number of schools that had shoot clubs in the 60s and now. Look at what will happen if you bring your favorite gun with you so that you can go hunting or shooting after school.

The number of road blocks to civilian marksmanship, while not total, is formidable.

I totally agree with LR,it's a down ward spiral which will result in eventually dropping the program entirely............ Sad,very sad in what's happening in our country regarding guns and the negative PR being pushed by the media,especially by the current administration...........

Big Teddy

[Ghost Medic]

Lots of good stuff here and several good points have been made. There were multiple factors in the defeat.

From everything I have ever read the key thing I have personally taken away is the fact that the Russians had General Zhukov.
His battlefield strategy put the Germans in a position to be encircled and after a time it became impossible to even conceive of a breakout.
The Germans having Paulus was a strength, but he was hindered by Hitler. The fact that Hitler promoted Paulus to Field Marshall at the eleventh hour was the signal for Paulus to die in place (to that point no German Field Marshal had ever been taken POW).

Simply Stated:

No Zhukov.... No Russian Victory at Stalingrad.

[Razor]

Originally Posted by Richard

HSJROTC marksmanship programs are still common here in Texas. Here are a couple of examples - http://www.7thbattalion.com/teams.htm http://pearlandjrotc.org/teams/

Marksmanship (both rifle and shotgun) is also a popular subject in Boy Scouts around these parts.

Richard

Thank goodness for these institutions; unfortunately, doing some quick Google searches and rough number crunching shows us that BSA and JROTC programs only involve 4.5% or less of the population under 18 in the US, and not all JROTC or BSA units have active shooting programs.

[Dusty]

Originally Posted by BOfH

All good points,

How the fuck could you possibly ascertain that point/

[BOfH]

Originally Posted by Dusty

How the fuck could you possibly ascertain that point/

I can't, maybe 'All' was to broad, criticism..err..point taken