10-07-2010, 10:04
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#1
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Quiet Professional
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: NorCal
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Next Generation Fighter Aircraft Concept?
Something to consider for the next generation of fighter aircraft? 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8_mhE1_dnq8&NR=1
Richard 
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Richard is offline
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10-07-2010, 18:44
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#2
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Quiet Professional
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Quote:
I don't get it
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Producing a full-scale aircraft with that level of maneuverability...
Richard
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“Sometimes the Bible in the hand of one man is worse than a whisky bottle in the hand of (another)… There are just some kind of men who – who’re so busy worrying about the next world they’ve never learned to live in this one, and you can look down the street and see the results.” - To Kill A Mockingbird (Atticus Finch)
“Almost any sect, cult, or religion will legislate its creed into law if it acquires the political power to do so.” - Robert Heinlein
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Richard is offline
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10-07-2010, 19:13
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#3
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Area Commander
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard
Producing a full-scale aircraft with that level of maneuverability...
Richard |
Thrust-to-weight=ain't going to happen.
Pat
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PSM is offline
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10-07-2010, 19:22
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#4
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Guerrilla Chief
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Super light, lots of flap angle ( 90 deg? ), hangs off the prop nicely. I thought he was going to hover like a helicopter when going straight up.
Not quite a UV-20A but.... 
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dr. mabuse is offline
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10-07-2010, 19:32
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#5
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Area Commander
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Also, modern fighters fight BVR; no more dogfights. Only 3rd World countries would need this maneuverability and who could train the pilots? Sean?
Pat
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"Hector Lives!"
"The limits of tyrants are prescribed by the endurance of those whom they oppress." -- Frederick Douglass
"The bigger the government, the smaller the citizen." -- Dennis Prager
"The urge to save humanity is almost always only a false-face for the urge to rule it." --H.L. Mencken
Last edited by PSM; 10-08-2010 at 09:14.
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PSM is offline
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10-07-2010, 20:23
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#6
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Quote:
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Also, modern fighters fight BVR; no more dogfights. Only 3rd Wold countries would need this maneuverability...
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If that's the case, why are we developing the F-35?
Richard
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“Sometimes the Bible in the hand of one man is worse than a whisky bottle in the hand of (another)… There are just some kind of men who – who’re so busy worrying about the next world they’ve never learned to live in this one, and you can look down the street and see the results.” - To Kill A Mockingbird (Atticus Finch)
“Almost any sect, cult, or religion will legislate its creed into law if it acquires the political power to do so.” - Robert Heinlein
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Richard is offline
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10-07-2010, 20:25
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#7
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Area Commander
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard
If that's the case, why are we developing the F-35?
Richard |
Exactamente!
Pat
ETA: On further reflection, are you suggesting that we are developing the F-35 solely for our allied/client states that rotate within visual range of the enemy?
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"Hector Lives!"
"The limits of tyrants are prescribed by the endurance of those whom they oppress." -- Frederick Douglass
"The bigger the government, the smaller the citizen." -- Dennis Prager
"The urge to save humanity is almost always only a false-face for the urge to rule it." --H.L. Mencken
Last edited by PSM; 10-07-2010 at 21:18.
Reason: as stated.
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PSM is offline
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10-08-2010, 07:53
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#8
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Quiet Professional
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard
If that's the case, why are we developing the F-35?
Richard |
Stealthy CAS platform, in a fighter-led service, IMHO.
TR
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The Reaper is offline
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10-08-2010, 15:42
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#9
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Quote:
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They thought the same thing during I think Vietnam when they took the machine guns off the fighter planes because modern fighters supposedly only fought with missiles. Broadsword2004
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I was going to say the same thing. During the 1970s There was a mad scramble to outfit the F-4 Phantom with guns; a removable machine gun pod under the fuselage was what they finally came up with. I was reminded of this when I attended a SWCS instructor offsite with GEN Boykin chairing. They were looking for an alternative to Robin Sage because, " We're never going to conduct UW - we might need to design a FID exercise." less than 20 months later we were operating with the Northern Alliance.
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SouthernDZ is offline
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10-08-2010, 16:23
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#10
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Area Commander
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Murphy Lives
Technology is great, but this reminded me of some of the late Col. Boyd's writing on guns and fighters, the general gist IIRC,
ROE and logistics possibly factor in as well, In Gulf of Sidra type confrontations long range air to air missile capability doesn't matter much if US pilots aren't allowed to fire first, and the enemy with guns but less technology waits inside missile range, or if a month into a large conventional air war both sides have used up the available supply of air to air missiles, it falls back to guns until replenished.
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akv is offline
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10-08-2010, 17:16
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#11
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Quiet Professional
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SouthernDZ
I was going to say the same thing. During the 1970s There was a mad scramble to outfit the F-4 Phantom with guns; a removable machine gun pod under the fuselage was what they finally came up with. I was reminded of this when I attended a SWCS instructor offsite with GEN Boykin chairing. They were looking for an alternative to Robin Sage because, "We're never going to conduct UW - we might need to design a FID exercise." less than 20 months later we were operating with the Northern Alliance.
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You're right, Mike. The F-4 didn't have guns at first. The Sparrow missiles for long range intercepts had about a 50%+ failure rate so they'd fire two at once to cover their bets. Still, more times than not, the missile would end up in some rice paddy. The sidewinders were good up close, but they couldn't be used against ground clutter and into the sun. There was nothing else when those were gone.
The no-gun design had its roots in the 1950s. The F-102 had only missiles and the F-106 (originally F-102B) had a Genie missile in the center bay. It was unguided: The pilot would point the aircraft into the general area of the formation of bombers, launch, and beat feet in the opposite direction. The warhead was a nuke. This bowling ball tactic was centered on the thinking at the time that large enemy bomber formations could be engaged from a distance and there would be no more dogfights. The NV Air Force, aided by Soviet pilots proved that wrong.
The F-4E had a nose-mounted Gatling gun. It was heralded as a huge step forward, except for the pilots who knew from the beginning that the doctrine from which the F-4 was originally designed.
Gen Boykin, not exactly a visionary, had the same line of thinking when he was looking for a removal of UW from the SF quiver. That's what happens when non-SF types command SF units and schools. The short-sighted are usually proven wrong, usually sooner than later.
(Richard - thanks for the cool video.) 
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10-08-2010, 19:33
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#12
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Area Commander
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Broadsword2004
I think for a UAV this could be good.
They thought the same thing during I think Vietnam when they took the machine guns off the fighter planes because modern fighters supposedly only fought with missiles.
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I wouldn't remove guns because they are rarely needed anymore than I'd remove ejection seats for the same reason. I'm just saying that the technology and training for such a maneuverable a/c is not needed.
BTW, don't give the AF any new useless and expensive ideas.
Pat
__________________
"Hector Lives!"
"The limits of tyrants are prescribed by the endurance of those whom they oppress." -- Frederick Douglass
"The bigger the government, the smaller the citizen." -- Dennis Prager
"The urge to save humanity is almost always only a false-face for the urge to rule it." --H.L. Mencken
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PSM is offline
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10-08-2010, 20:22
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#13
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Guest
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Wow!
Some day in the not too distant future, flying a RC aircraft will be a Soldier Level I Basic Combat Task.
I'm going back to reading old threads.
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10-08-2010, 21:19
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#14
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Guerrilla
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Just west of the beltway.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PSM
Also, modern fighters fight BVR; no more dogfights. Only 3rd World countries would need this maneuverability and who could train the pilots? Sean?
Pat |
This sort of thinking led USAF generals to omit guns from the F4. MiGs with guns over North Vietnam changed that thinking.
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219seminole is offline
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10-08-2010, 22:09
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#15
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Area Commander
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 219seminole
This sort of thinking led USAF generals to omit guns from the F4. MiGs with guns over North Vietnam changed that thinking.
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Oh, you Air Force guys! You really should read the whole thread first.
Also, how many years ago was that? I was 18 at the time.
Pat
__________________
"Hector Lives!"
"The limits of tyrants are prescribed by the endurance of those whom they oppress." -- Frederick Douglass
"The bigger the government, the smaller the citizen." -- Dennis Prager
"The urge to save humanity is almost always only a false-face for the urge to rule it." --H.L. Mencken
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