Where Did ‘We’ Go?

[Richard]

Something to ponder.

Richard

Where Did ‘We’ Go?
Thomas Friedman, NYT, 29 Sep 2009

I hate to write about this, but I have actually been to this play before and it is really disturbing.

I was in Israel interviewing Prime Minister Yitzhak Rabin just before he was assassinated in 1995. We had a beer in his office. He needed one. I remember the ugly mood in Israel then — a mood in which extreme right-wing settlers and politicians were doing all they could to delegitimize Rabin, who was committed to trading land for peace as part of the Oslo accords. They questioned his authority. They accused him of treason. They created pictures depicting him as a Nazi SS officer, and they shouted death threats at rallies. His political opponents winked at it all.

And in so doing they created a poisonous political environment that was interpreted by one right-wing Jewish nationalist as a license to kill Rabin — he must have heard, “God will be on your side” — and so he did.

Others have already remarked on this analogy, but I want to add my voice because the parallels to Israel then and America today turn my stomach: I have no problem with any of the substantive criticism of President Obama from the right or left. But something very dangerous is happening. Criticism from the far right has begun tipping over into delegitimation and creating the same kind of climate here that existed in Israel on the eve of the Rabin assassination.

What kind of madness is it that someone would create a poll on Facebook asking respondents, “Should Obama be killed?” The choices were: “No, Maybe, Yes, and Yes if he cuts my health care.” The Secret Service is now investigating. I hope they put the jerk in jail and throw away the key because this is exactly what was being done to Rabin.

Even if you are not worried that someone might draw from these vitriolic attacks a license to try to hurt the president, you have to be worried about what is happening to American politics more broadly.

Our leaders, even the president, can no longer utter the word “we” with a straight face. There is no more “we” in American politics at a time when “we” have these huge problems — the deficit, the recession, health care, climate change and wars in Iraq and Afghanistan — that “we” can only manage, let alone fix, if there is a collective “we” at work.

Sometimes I wonder whether George H.W. Bush, president “41,” will be remembered as our last “legitimate” president. The right impeached Bill Clinton and hounded him from Day 1 with the bogus Whitewater “scandal.” George W. Bush was elected under a cloud because of the Florida voting mess, and his critics on the left never let him forget it.

And Mr. Obama is now having his legitimacy attacked by a concerted campaign from the right fringe. They are using everything from smears that he is a closet “socialist” to calling him a “liar” in the middle of a joint session of Congress to fabricating doubts about his birth in America and whether he is even a citizen. And these attacks are not just coming from the fringe. Now they come from Lou Dobbs on CNN and from members of the House of Representatives.

Again, hack away at the man’s policies and even his character all you want. I know politics is a tough business. But if we destroy the legitimacy of another president to lead or to pull the country together for what most Americans want most right now — nation-building at home — we are in serious trouble. We can’t go 24 years without a legitimate president — not without being swamped by the problems that we will end up postponing because we can’t address them rationally.

The American political system was, as the saying goes, “designed by geniuses so it could be run by idiots.” But a cocktail of political and technological trends have converged in the last decade that are making it possible for the idiots of all political stripes to overwhelm and paralyze the genius of our system.

Those factors are: the wild excess of money in politics; the gerrymandering of political districts, making them permanently Republican or Democratic and erasing the political middle; a 24/7 cable news cycle that makes all politics a daily battle of tactics that overwhelm strategic thinking; and a blogosphere that at its best enriches our debates, adding new checks on the establishment, and at its worst coarsens our debates to a whole new level, giving a new power to anonymous slanderers to send lies around the world. Finally, on top of it all, we now have a permanent presidential campaign that encourages all partisanship, all the time among our leading politicians.

I would argue that together these changes add up to a difference of degree that is a difference in kind — a different kind of American political scene that makes me wonder whether we can seriously discuss serious issues any longer and make decisions on the basis of the national interest.

We can’t change this overnight, but what we can change, and must change, is people crossing the line between criticizing the president and tacitly encouraging the unthinkable and the unforgivable.

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/09/30/op...iedman.html?em

[LongWire]

Good Piece............

[JJ_BPK]

Originally Posted by Richard

Something to ponder.

Richard

Ponder indeed,, by all...

It needs to be spread to the masses..
To often statements like this languish in perpetuity,
never to be discussed nor ingested by the people that need to be informed..

It's going out on my shotgun mail list...

Thanks Richard..

[kgoerz]

IMO, janother Left Wing Opinion piece from the NY Time's. I call BS.

Sometimes I wonder whether George H.W. Bush, president “41,” will be remembered as our last “legitimate” president. The right impeached Bill Clinton and hounded him from Day 1 with the bogus Whitewater “scandal.” George W. Bush was elected under a cloud because of the Florida voting mess, and his critics on the left never let him forget it.

President Clinton participated in UN moral behavior with an Intern half his age in the White House. Then lied about it. He wasn't impeached for a bogus Whitewater Scandal. The votes in Florida were counted and GW Bush won the election. The NYT.....PLEEAAASE.

[HOLLiS]

I never liked partisan politics, it is based on the ends justifies the means. The big change we got this last November, instead of the constant Bush bashing that has been slowly slowly replaced with constant Obama bashing.


Deserving criticism is important and a necessity, but muck raking, mud slinging, and out-in-out inflammatory lies only degrades our society. That said part, both D's and R's a guilty of it. Some how doing what is right, because it is the right thing to do has been long lost in our political system.


Whilst part of the problem are our elected leaders, the power of this country actually lies in the hands of our citizens.

[Richard]

IMO, janother Left Wing Opinion piece from the NY Time's. I call BS.

President Clinton participated in UN moral behavior with an Intern half his age in the White House. Then lied about it. He wasn't impeached for a bogus Whitewater Scandal.

President Clinton was impeached by Congress for perjury, obstruction of justice, and abuse of power as the result of a series of investigations which began with the Whitewater issue; he was not convicted by the Senate.

The votes in Florida were counted and GW Bush won the election.

Not quite - perhaps you should read the SCOTUS decision which does not support the first half of such a statement.

http://supct.law.cornell.edu/supct/html/00-949.ZPC.html

Richard

I can say I REMEMBER back in the day, when Hinckley lit up Reagan and said he did it to impress Jodi Foster. Where did Hinkley get the idea that shooting Reagan would impress Ms. Foster? Could it have been the shrill left-wing media's constant attacks that knew no bounds? Ronald Wilson Reagan, mmmmm, mmmmm, mmmmm.

[Team Sergeant]

Originally Posted by Richard

Something to ponder.

Richard

Where Did ‘We’ Go?
Thomas Friedman, NYT, 29 Sep 2009

I hate to write about this, but I have actually been to this play before and it is really disturbing.
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/09/30/op...iedman.html?em

I'm glad he's disturbed so am I.

I am disturbed at the socialist direction this country is moving in.

I am disturbed with the current government spending trillions of taxpayers money without a solid plan.

I am disturbed with the idea of socialized medicine.

I am down right pissed our government is giving billions of taxpayers dollars to those that didn't work for it.

I am disturbed with government corruption, just like todays headline that Obama's 'Safe Schools' Czar said this to a child and works for the idiot obama:

Obama's 'Safe Schools' Czar Admits He Poorly Handled Underage Sex Case
Kevin Jennings was teaching high school in 1988 when a gay student confessed an involvement with an older man. Rather than reporting it, he told the boy, "I hope you knew to use a condom."

I am much more than disturbed, I'm goddamned pissed.

It makes me happy Thomas Friedman and the NYT's are concerned.


Team Sergeant

[kgoerz]

President Clinton was impeached by Congress for perjury, obstruction of justice, and abuse of power as the result of a series of investigations which began with the Whitewater issue; he was not convicted by the Senate.

And this was a Right Wing Conspiracy?

[rubberneck]

Originally Posted by Richard

Not quite - perhaps you should read the SCOTUS decision which does not support the first half of such a statement.

Richard

In the spring of 2001 a group of newspapers led by the NYT recounted all the ballots in the state of Florida including those disqualified/hanging chad and came to the conclusion that Bush did indeed win. The liberals love to cry about the decision handed down by the Supreme Court but the fact of the matter is that even if they had ruled in Gore's favor George W Bush would have won. The "unfairness" of the Florida recount is just a red herring.

[Team Sergeant]

Originally Posted by Richard

Something to ponder.

Richard

Where Did ‘We’ Go?
Thomas Friedman, NYT, 29 Sep 2009

And Mr. Obama is now having his legitimacy attacked by a concerted campaign from the right fringe. They are using everything from smears that he is a closet “socialist” to calling him a “liar” in the middle of a joint session of Congress to fabricating doubts about his birth in America and whether he is even a citizen. And these attacks are not just coming from the fringe. Now they come from Lou Dobbs on CNN and from members of the House of Representatives.

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/09/30/op...iedman.html?em

Richard,

This is about as far left as one can get and you actually think it's worth pondering?

One of those fringe elements would be easily satiated just by showing the public a F***ing birth certificate. Please Sir, tell me why a new and "transparent" government cannot perform that SIMPLE task? I believe he was born on US soil, but I'd sure like to see "why" he is keeping such a simple document under wraps. Ponder this, why not show the document and remove all doubts?

His socialist background is not fabricated, you and I both know that.

Tell me something, would you attend the same church obama did for 20 years and listen to Jeremiah Wright speak, how about your children or any of your family? Now tell me you don't think Jeremiah Wright is a lunatic and a racist.

Yet he continues to surround himself with convicts and complete lunatics.

And we're all racists or now "right wing Fringe" if we disagree?

I'm not drinking that kool-aid, I've got nothing to ponder. There's a reason for the "unprecedented" run on guns and ammo and none of it concerns me. Those millions must just be fringe elements or racists.

TS


All Quotes Attributed to Pastor Jeremiah Wright

“We bombed Hiroshima, we bombed Nagasaki, and we nuked far more than the thousands in New York and the Pentagon, and we never batted an eye.”

“We have supported state terrorism against the Palestinians and black South Africans, and now we are indignant because the stuff we have done overseas is now brought right back to our own front yards. America’s chickens are coming home to roost.” (Sep 2001)

“The government gives them the drugs, builds bigger prisons, passes a three-strike law and then wants us to sing ‘God Bless America.’ No, no, no, God damn America, that’s in the Bible for killing innocent people. God damn America for treating our citizens as less than human. God damn America for as long as she acts like she is God and she is supreme.” (2003)

“In the 21st century, white America got a wake-up call after 9/11/01. White America and the western world came to realize that people of color had not gone away, faded into the woodwork or just ‘disappeared’ as the Great White West kept on its merry way of ignoring black concerns.” (magazine article)

“Racism is how this country was founded and how this country is still run!…We [in the U.S.] believe in white supremacy and black inferiority and believe it more than we believe in God.” (sermon)

“Barack knows what it means living in a country and a culture that is controlled by rich white people. Hillary would never know that. Hillary ain’t never been called a nigger. Hillary has never had a people defined as a non-person.”

“Hillary is married to Bill, and Bill has been good to us. No he ain’t! Bill did us, just like he did Monica Lewinsky. He was riding dirty.” (sermon)

“The Israelis have illegally occupied Palestinian territories for over 40 years now. Divestment has now hit the table again as a strategy to wake the business community and wake up Americans concerning the injustice and the racism under which the Palestinians have lived because of Zionism.”

[Dozer523]

I didn't read nothin' 'bout no 'merican 'lectshun in this here article.
Sprechen zie 'hi-jack"?

[nmap]

But the present situation is simply the extension of a trend - one which has been in place for 40 or more years.

We can look back to Saul Alinsky...William Ayers...all the rest who emphasized political activism, civil disobedience (which often involves illegal acts), and all manner of incivility.

If the left chooses to use a set of tactics which prove effective, then it can hardly surprise when the right adopts similar tactics, adapts and improves them, and seeks to gain the same advantages. The two sides will expand, escalate, and develop those tactics - and to expect the process to stop at some arbitrary point seems contrary to human nature.

Of course there is no serious discussion of serious issues. Such attempts at cogent discourse have been undermined by those who felt their cause justified bad behavior. We see it in the constant interruptions by guests on talk shows. We see it in the accusations of racism - which are clearly meant as a bludgeon to foreclose the very discussions Mr. Friedman champions. We see it at the local level, from the school board to the city council, where community organizers disrupt and behave badly.

Will this trend change? Perhaps if we face some common enemy that we can unite in hating. I use the term hating with intention - strong emotional engagement is, I think, necessary. But until we can take the accumulated rage on both sides and channel it - and, critically, dissipate it - then it will continue to grow. Unfortunately, such raw emotion is frowned upon these days, so I suspect the trend will continue. If further fear and anger are developed due to adverse events - the economy, perhaps - then the POTUS and his successors may find governance quite challenging.

[Sigaba]

I agree that today's political climate is worrisome.

Yet, I wonder if Mr. Friedman longing for a halcyon age of political unity that never existed. I would be hard pressed to find a significant interval of time when portions of Americans weren't angry at each other about something.

And before Mr. Friedman points his finger at anyone for the current tone of political discourse, he might want to do a search of his own comments about Bush the Younger. As an example, Mr. Friedman wrote in 2003 (source is here):

If only the Bush team connected the dots, it would see what a nutty war on terrorism it is fighting, explains Mr. Prestowitz. Here, he says, is the Bush war on terrorism: Preach free trade, but don't deliver on it, so Pakistani farmers become more impoverished. Then ask Congress to give a tax break for any American who wants to buy a gas-guzzling Humvee for business use and also ask Congress to resist any efforts to make Detroit increase gasoline mileage in new cars. All this means more U.S. oil imports from Saudi Arabia.

So then the Saudis have more dollars to give to their Wahhabi fundamentalist evangelists, who spend it by building religious schools in Pakistan. The Pakistani farmer we've put out of business with our farm subsidies then sends his sons to the Wahhabi school because it is tuition-free and offers a hot lunch. His sons grow up getting only a Koranic education, so they are totally unprepared for modernity, but they are taught one thing: that America is the source of all their troubles. One of the farmer's sons joins Al Qaeda and is killed in Afghanistan by U.S. Special Forces, and we think we're winning the war on terrorism.

Fat chance.

FWIW, no one was prepared for modernity. Not for nothing did Europeans gleefully anticipate the coming of the Great War.

[Richard]

FWIW - I never claimed to agree or disagree with all of his thinking - but did think this summation -

The American political system was, as the saying goes, “designed by geniuses so it could be run by idiots.” But a cocktail of political and technological trends have converged in the last decade that are making it possible for the idiots of all political stripes to overwhelm and paralyze the genius of our system.

Those factors are: the wild excess of money in politics; the gerrymandering of political districts, making them permanently Republican or Democratic and erasing the political middle; a 24/7 cable news cycle that makes all politics a daily battle of tactics that overwhelm strategic thinking; and a blogosphere that at its best enriches our debates, adding new checks on the establishment, and at its worst coarsens our debates to a whole new level, giving a new power to anonymous slanderers to send lies around the world. Finally, on top of it all, we now have a permanent presidential campaign that encourages all partisanship, all the time among our leading politicians.

I would argue that together these changes add up to a difference of degree that is a difference in kind — a different kind of American political scene that makes me wonder whether we can seriously discuss serious issues any longer and make decisions on the basis of the national interest.

We can’t change this overnight, but what we can change, and must change, is people crossing the line between criticizing the president and tacitly encouraging the unthinkable and the unforgivable.

was something worth pondering - to reflect or consider with thoroughness and care.

You can read into it what you want - and YMMV - but I think he has made some valid points worth pondering.

Richard