10-26-2006, 18:24
|
#2
|
|
Quiet Professional
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Free Pineland
Posts: 24,826
|
Hey, I'm missing something here.
Why not use the artificial horizon and radar altimeter to stay level and bring it down slowly?
TR
__________________
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood; who strives valiantly; who errs, who comes short again and again, because there is no effort without error and shortcoming; but who does actually strive to do the deeds; who knows great enthusiasms, the great devotions; who spends himself in a worthy cause; who at the best knows in the end the triumph of high achievement, and who at the worst, if he fails, at least fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who neither know victory nor defeat." - President Theodore Roosevelt, 1910
De Oppresso Liber 01/20/2025
|
|
The Reaper is offline
|
|
|
10-26-2006, 21:30
|
#3
|
|
Asset
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Livermore Colorado
Posts: 24
|
That's what I was wondering.
|
|
GreenMtnTac is offline
|
|
|
10-26-2006, 21:42
|
#4
|
|
Quiet Professional
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Free Pineland
Posts: 24,826
|
I am sure that our resident rotorhead will be along shortly to explain.
Captain!!! 
TR
__________________
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood; who strives valiantly; who errs, who comes short again and again, because there is no effort without error and shortcoming; but who does actually strive to do the deeds; who knows great enthusiasms, the great devotions; who spends himself in a worthy cause; who at the best knows in the end the triumph of high achievement, and who at the worst, if he fails, at least fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who neither know victory nor defeat." - President Theodore Roosevelt, 1910
De Oppresso Liber 01/20/2025
|
|
The Reaper is offline
|
|
|
10-26-2006, 21:55
|
#5
|
|
Gun Pilot
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Iowa and New Mexico
Posts: 2,143
|
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by The Reaper
Hey, I'm missing something here.
Why not use the artificial horizon and radar altimeter to stay level and bring it down slowly?
TR
|
"I am sure that our resident rotorhead will be along shortly to explain".
Captain!!!
Here, Sir!
What's a "radar altimeter"? 
During the dry season in VN we often had the same problem. Just set up on final approach, and reach for the ground! No cutting and running, once you have committed you take it to the ground, not always the prettiest landing though!
The crew is trying to help spot the ground for the pilot, but you can't hover in a brownout!!
__________________
E7-CW3-direct commission VN
B model gunship pilot 65-66 Soc Trang, Cobra Pilot 68-69-70 Can Tho Life member 101st Airborne Association
Last edited by CPTAUSRET; 10-26-2006 at 21:58.
|
|
CPTAUSRET is offline
|
|
|
10-26-2006, 22:25
|
#6
|
|
Kia ora, bro
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: New Zealand
Posts: 931
|
By the time you're close enough to have a brownout you'd be pretty close to the ground anyway wouldn't you, sir? Hence you'd only be in for a few seconds, by my reackoning.
I'd hate to imagine what the paperwork is like for breaking a helo these days though!
__________________
"You destroyed half a city block!"
"That block was already messed up."
|
|
Huey14 is offline
|
|
|
10-26-2006, 22:30
|
#7
|
|
Gun Pilot
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Iowa and New Mexico
Posts: 2,143
|
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Huey14
By the time you're close enough to have a brownout you'd be pretty close to the ground anyway wouldn't you, sir? Hence you'd only be in for a few seconds, by my reackoning.
I'd hate to imagine what the paperwork is like for breaking a helo these days though!
|
Bigger the ship greater the mass, the more rotor wash you stir up...That's why I picked a spot, and just rode it in. I can imagine you could easily have a problem w/in 30 feet of the ground, and that leaves plenty of space to get into trouble!
__________________
E7-CW3-direct commission VN
B model gunship pilot 65-66 Soc Trang, Cobra Pilot 68-69-70 Can Tho Life member 101st Airborne Association
|
|
CPTAUSRET is offline
|
|
|
10-26-2006, 22:35
|
#8
|
|
Kia ora, bro
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: New Zealand
Posts: 931
|
True enough!
Was there much danger of ingesting dirt and other shit into the turbine when you were flying in RVN?
__________________
"You destroyed half a city block!"
"That block was already messed up."
|
|
Huey14 is offline
|
|
|
10-26-2006, 22:54
|
#9
|
|
Gun Pilot
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Iowa and New Mexico
Posts: 2,143
|
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Huey14
True enough!
Was there much danger of ingesting dirt and other shit into the turbine when you were flying in RVN?
|
Sure was, we lost a few turbines until someone figured out a 90 degree air box intake, which kept most of the debris out of the engines.
__________________
E7-CW3-direct commission VN
B model gunship pilot 65-66 Soc Trang, Cobra Pilot 68-69-70 Can Tho Life member 101st Airborne Association
|
|
CPTAUSRET is offline
|
|
|
10-26-2006, 23:24
|
#10
|
|
Kia ora, bro
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: New Zealand
Posts: 931
|
Thanks for the answers, sir.
__________________
"You destroyed half a city block!"
"That block was already messed up."
|
|
Huey14 is offline
|
|
|
10-27-2006, 06:28
|
#11
|
|
Gun Pilot
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Iowa and New Mexico
Posts: 2,143
|
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Huey14
Thanks for the answers, sir.
|
De nada, Huey!
That's what TS pays me for!  LOL
__________________
E7-CW3-direct commission VN
B model gunship pilot 65-66 Soc Trang, Cobra Pilot 68-69-70 Can Tho Life member 101st Airborne Association
|
|
CPTAUSRET is offline
|
|
|
11-15-2006, 07:54
|
#12
|
|
Quiet Professional
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: United States of America
Posts: 237
|
Brown out
Brown out can be a huge problem in deep fine powder if the aircraft is not set up properly to land on short final. You have to be established long before that time comes into play. I have had PIs freak out in the cockpit, both day and under NVGs, and start pulling power, where I still had the ground in sight or was comfortable with the aircraft profile in relationship to the earths surface and confined space I was landing. It is hard for a young inexperienced PI to set the aircraft profile up and hurl yourself to the earth at 500 - 700 FPM and at 70 knots. Experience and confidence in yourself and the airframe you fly has a large amount to do with it also. Use of the artificial horizon and radar altimeter s too little too late with current technology found in the majority of DOD aircraft.
This is way it is critical for the ground forces to understand aviation limitations and establish HLZs within those limits. I really thought that I understood aviation prior to flight school but was educated quickly that I was quit naïve in limitations. That third dimension is a killer.
TOG
Last edited by The Old Guy; 11-15-2006 at 07:56.
|
|
The Old Guy is offline
|
|
|
11-17-2006, 21:02
|
#13
|
|
Asset
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Colorado Springs area.
Posts: 8
|
brownout
One problem, even with an artificial horizon and a radar altimeter, is "drift"; that imperceptible horizontal movement of the aircraft across the ground. I forget now what the feet per second (fps) motion vector is (I actually used to know this stuff), but it is is very small to move the center of gravity outside the lateral control limits of most helicopters. Imagine a marble on the end of a string, and trying to stop the movement. If you drag a wheel (or a skid on the older stuff) moving sideways in a brownout, control of the aircraft can literally be lost before you know what happens.
As much as I used to train this in day, night and NVG conditions, and in snow and sand, it still was a "heart-stopper" when conditions were really bad. A fine-tuned GPS and a coupled autopilot would be beneficial for improved landing sites, but most tactical insertions don't offer that luxury, and it's the last 6-12" that matter the most for snagging a stump or a rise in the terrain.
|
|
Cobra642 is offline
|
|
|
12-24-2006, 11:43
|
#14
|
|
Asset
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Ft. Campbell, Ky
Posts: 4
|
Brown Out
Brown outs are more of a problem when landing in a controlled enviroment than in a combat. In a combat the option is there to use that forward momentum to counter act that drift left or right. Also when talking about Brown outs you have to take into to account the Apache and Kiowa who dont have crew chiefs and generally land onto forward arming and refueling points imbetween pad chiefs, ammo and other aircraft requiring them to slow down and land directly onto there pad. During OIF 1 i was attached to a battalion that had 4 aircraft go down 3 due to brown out, in each case the pilots tried to use there instrumentation but couldnt counteract there sideways movement causing them to tip over when that right or left weel dug in. More than anything the experience level of the pilot has more to do with the success of the landing.
|
|
SSG Garcia is offline
|
|
|
01-18-2007, 14:01
|
#15
|
|
Asset
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Texas
Posts: 49
|
Yes, brownout can be a very serious problem and causes many accidents. I know I've pulled a bit of seat mesh out of my fourth point of contact on a few occasions after being Chalk Seven to a bowl of moon dust...
As for the system described, even though more technocrap in the helicopter is exactly what we need, I don't think the system as described will be of much use. Exposed precision lenses in the middle of a brownout won't last long. Flight engineers have other shit to do besides focus on a screen during the landing sequence. A large flash of IR light, now that Gs have NODs, doesn't strike me as a good idea.
Like just about everything else, brownout isn't something that can't be overcome with proper training and planning on the part of the aircrews, but then the contractors won't get that $150,000 per lunch ticket...
|
|
60_Driver is offline
|
|
|
Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
|
|
|
Posting Rules
|
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts
HTML code is Off
|
|
|
All times are GMT -6. The time now is 20:54.
|
|
|
Linear Mode
