Houston we have a problem

[Smokin Joe]

We recently had 2 Kabooms while running our patrol rifle school this past week. Our #1 suspect right now is in sufficient crimps on our reloaded ammo... causing the bullet to fall deeper into the casing prior to being fired. However, you guys are the experts if you guys have any other opinions I'm all ears.

Special circumstances that were revealed after the 2 Kabooms. Prior to the 2 KABOOMS 3 different shooters through out the course of the class discovered 3 different rounds with the bullets seated too deep into the casing. None of these rounds were loaded into rifles. Only 1 individual brought it to an instructors attention. The other 2 figured it was a fluke and dismissed/discarded the rounds when they saw them.

Scenario #1:

Rifle: Personally owned Busmaster XM-15E2 with 14.5 inch barrel and permantely attached mini Y-comp flash suppressor.
- rifle condition: Close to new with less than 500 rounds through the weapon.

Shooter: Typical cop with about a year in patrol. Not a gun guy by any means.

Ammo: Was reloaded using a Dillon multi-stage 650 reloading press. I'm still working on the details as to the powder used. I was told by the guy who reloaded the ammo that the powder is by a reputable manufactor. Additionally that you could not pack enough powder into a casing in order to produce an over powered charge. .... Again I'm still trying to get all the details on it.

Conditions: The rifle had less than 50 rounds through it (on this day) prior to the course of fire that had the KABOOM. While shooting a course of fire using departmentally reloaded ammo. Magazine inserted, shooter was mid way through the course of fire, when KABOOM. The bottom of the magazine blew out and the shooter sustained mild powder burns to his hands (I'm not sure how he was holding the rifle at the time).

Results: Bolt and bolt carrier where stuck into battery, the bottom of the bolt carrier was blown out and hanging by a thread from the bolt carrier. After alot of work we were able to remove the barrel from the upper reciever and discovered the extrator was bent out of shape. Casing exploded rearwards (see photo's)

[Smokin Joe]

Scenario #2

Rifle: Surplus M16A1 deparmentally owned with a 20 inch barrel
-rifle condition:OLD school circa 1960's M16A1 unknown how many rounds have been through it. Venture a guess at ALOT of rounds have gone through it. However it (used to) function fine and held a zero.

Shooter: Was a Marine infantry man but has not shot an AR series rifle in 4-5 years prior to our 3 day rifle school. However he shot well and his weapon manipulation was decent to good (in relation to his peers ability).

Condtions: While shooting the last round of the day using the same above mentioned ammo. Magazine was REMOVED prior to the round being fired. When KABOOM. No injury to the shooter

Results: Bolt carrier is blown out same as the bushmaster. Once the upper barrel was removed from the upper reciever we discovered the same scene we found in the bushmaster (see pics)

I have a ton of other photos and can post on demand I just don't want to kill the bandwith (more than I already am).

Hopefully I haven't left out any other pertnant details...

[Roguish Lawyer]

Originally Posted by Smokin Joe

I have a ton of other photos and can post on demand I just don't want to kill the bandwith (more than I already am).

Excellent -- it is imperative that everyone work to conserve our scarce bandwidth.

[Peregrino]

SJ - Pistol powder is the usual culprit though it's probably ruled out since these were the only two incidents. You neglected to mention if there were signs of a barrel obstruction. A short charge with enough powder to stick the round between the gas port and the end of the barrel might still function the rifle but leave an obstructed bore resulting in catastrophic failure with the next round. Stage 3 of your 650 should have the powder check die in it to detect short charges. All the acceptable .223/5.56 powders I'm familiar with fill the case nearly full, any double charge makes a "mell of a hess". I routinely use compressed charges for my match ammo (kiddies don't try this at home) and haven't had any problems. Quarantine ALL of the ammo from that batch. If you used quality components, a digital scale will spot short charges. Otherwise - burn the lot. (Or make the guy that reloaded them pull the bullets. ) My best guess without more info - somebody else may be along shortly with a better idea. I'm glad nobody was seriously injured.

Peregrino

[Smokin Joe]

Sorry there was no "detectable" barrel obstructions prior to the KABOOMS. No light pops or feeding issues in previous rounds fired.

[The Reaper]

Joe:

I have fired hundreds of compressed rounds that I picked up off ranges and have never had a KB with any of them. I do not believe that was the cause of your problem.

My suspicion would be wrong/mixed powder or overcharges.

Personally, I would never use anything that the guy loaded again, would see if his insurance would cover the damaged weapons, and would stick to factory loaded ammo, unless you really like living on the edge for $50 per thousand.

Just my .02, YMMV.

TR

[Smokin Joe]

Originally Posted by The Reaper

Joe:

I have fired hundreds of compressed rounds that I picked up off ranges and have never had a KB with any of them. I do not believe that was the cause of your problem.

My suspicion would be wrong/mixed powder or overcharges.

Personally, I would never use anything that the guy loaded again, would see if his insurance would cover the damaged weapons, and would stick to factory loaded ammo, unless you really like living on the edge for $50 per thousand.

Just my .02, YMMV.

TR

Hmmmm that adds new light...

We have seperated the lot of ammo and we are going to be disecting a lot of bullets to see what the issue maybe.

As for replacement weapons goes thats going to be on the departments shoulders. The guy is a Deputy who was given the task of making reloads with department equipment and supplies. So we may have a training issue there.

[Gene Econ]

Originally Posted by Peregrino

SJ - Pistol powder is the usual culprit though it's probably ruled out since these were the only two incidents. You neglected to mention if there were signs of a barrel obstruction. A short charge with enough powder to stick the round between the gas port and the end of the barrel might still function the rifle but leave an obstructed bore resulting in catastrophic failure with the next round. Stage 3 of your 650 should have the powder check die in it to detect short charges. All the acceptable .223/5.56 powders I'm familiar with fill the case nearly full, any double charge makes a "mell of a hess". I routinely use compressed charges for my match ammo (kiddies don't try this at home) and haven't had any problems. Quarantine ALL of the ammo from that batch. If you used quality components, a digital scale will spot short charges. Otherwise - burn the lot. (Or make the guy that reloaded them pull the bullets. ) My best guess without more info - somebody else may be along shortly with a better idea. I'm glad nobody was seriously injured. Peregrino

Peregrino:

Joe hasn't mentioned the load as of yet. Need to hear the load. Probably not pistol powder as others were shooting the load without mishap.

My opinion? Probably a max load combined with worn out brass and worn out barrels or excessive headspace.

Or the reloader tossed in some 69 or heavier bullets on loads inteded for 55 grain bullets. That 5.56 is not real forgiving in terms of handloading mistakes. The AR-15 isn't a Quad Lock.

For blasting, it is better to buy some American Eagle stuff than to hand load it anyway.

Gene

[Gene Econ]

Originally Posted by Smokin Joe

Sorry there was no "detectable" barrel obstructions prior to the KABOOMS. No light pops or feeding issues in previous rounds fired.

Joe:

Three questions.

1. Why didn't the trainer cease fire after the first blown up rifle?

2. What was the load that the handlader said he was using?

3. What was the real load that was used after pulling about 100 bullets? This includes weighing of each bullet as the fellow may have mixed bullets.

I doubt it was pistol powder or you would have heard multiple booms at the same time as every AR blew up on the first round fired. Pistol powder loaded into a rifle cartridge will either lock the rifle up permanently or blow it to pieces.

I would bet that a bunch of spent cases from the class are missing primers. These spent primers can be found in the trigger well on AR's BTW and they will cause a malfunction of the trigger so it is best that everyone who attended this training have their trigger well carefully inspected for spent primers. A very good look while shaking the lower as small rifle primers can get hidden below the trigger assembly parts.

Gene

[The Reaper]

Okay guys.

Lots of good advice here. I concur with Gene, the bullet weight could also be a factor, a 77gr. projo over a hot 52 gr. load can cause serious problems.

Follow this.

1. Be very cautious when shooting unknown reloads. I will only use reloads from a couple of buddies that I know to be as anal about it as me. Companies that reload have to carry serious liability insurance, for a good reason.

2. Inspect the first few fired cases at the beginning of the shooting session and from each new batch closely. The eye you save may be your own. While visual inspection is not necessarily a good way to detect pressure, popped or blown primers are definitely a sign of trouble, STOP!

3. If a problem occurs, stop shooting immediately, clear all weapons, take note of any observations by all shooters, collect the brass, unfired rounds, and any other evidence.

4. Have an experienced reloader inspect the brass and tear down the rounds, inspecting the cases, powder, and projos. He should have a good scale, or he is not an experienced reloader.

The weapon is an instrument of lethal force. With bad ammo, it can become as dangerous on the shooting end as it is downrange. Be careful and if something seems wrong, STOP SHOOTING and figure it out!

TR

[Smokin Joe]

Gene,

1. I wasn't running the line at the time nor was I on the range so I'm not sure why they let everyone continue shooting.

I do know that there was some ammo mixtures..... ie American Eagle ammo and Reloads got mixed together in guys pockets during magazine reloading.

The other issue is the department has only bought/used 55gr FMJ bullets for reloads, we don't have any lighter or heavier bullets in our entire stock.

I'll start checking for blown primers.

And I'll get the answers to your other questions ASAP.

Thanks Gentlemen for the guidance.

[Psywar1-0]

Originally Posted by Smokin Joe

As for replacement weapons goes thats going to be on the departments shoulders. The guy is a Deputy who was given the task of making reloads with department equipment and supplies. So we may have a training issue there.

Very much so, last time depts loaded their own ammo 1860 Army's were the issue handgun


I understand the desire to get the mission done, but reloading without formal school training is not something that I would ever do for the Job.

[HOLLiS]

Originally Posted by Psywar1-0

Very much so, last time depts loaded their own ammo 1860 Army's were the issue handgun


I understand the desire to get the mission done, but reloading without formal school training is not something that I would ever do for the Job.

A close friend is a retired Deputy from a department in California. He was the range officer for that department for almost 10 years and competed often. That department would re-load.

I know other department that use to do that too. Problem, I think you are eluding too, there are reloaders and then there are reloaders that are clueless. Most reloaders I know have decades of experience and also a commonality is not trusting someone else's reloads (unless they know that person).

Progressive presses have their own unique reloading errors. Especially if methodology is broken or interrupted. I really can not offer any other suggestions to what has already been said. I am waiting to find out what happened.

[Karl.Masters]

SJ,

Absolutely concur with all previous comments.

I would recommend that you conduct a check of overall length (OAL) of the rounds in question if it is still possible to do that with rounds from the lot in question.

Shooters able to visually detect an issue with short OAL, and discard the rounds, indicates a potentially large deviation from proper tolerance.

Also, I understand that recovery of the projos involved may be impossible, but I don't know your training devices & range set up. If either projectile could be recovered it could provide some additional clues to the failure mode.

My .02

V/r
Karl

[Smokin Joe]

Originally Posted by Karl.Masters

SJ,

Shooters able to visually detect an issue with short OAL, and discard the rounds, indicates a potentially large deviation from proper tolerance.

V/r
Karl

Sir, when one of the rounds was brought to my attention. I observed it to be sitting about 50%-60% deeper into the casing then it should have been. A theory that is being kicked around right now (pre-ammo lot inspection) is that we may have a crimping problem.

The ammo inspections are now underway.

Both Bushmaster and Colt have been contacted concerning the incident. Both manufacturers have requested we send them their rifle for inspection. They are enroute.

Hopefully, I can get some answers soon.

Everyone,

While inspecting the bolt faces it is obvious that both weapons sustained the same damage. Or mechanism of damage. I.e. both rifles fired while the bolts were in battery. The gun goes "BANG" and at some point the gas thinks it is a better idea to go out the ass end of the casing then to go out of the barrel. The primers get smashed into the firing pin channel, the base of the casing tries to smear its way through the ejector, the extractor gets bent about 30-45 degrees out ripping the side of the lip off. On rifle #1 the base of the magazine gets blow out and on rifle #2 we get severe damage to the dust cover.

Question: WHY?

Let me try and clarify what I'm asking. From the time the primer is struck and the powder goes off what is the sequence of events (from your guys experience)? Does the gas linger in the chamber too long and say "screw this I'm going out the back door"? While doing so does it travel down the side of the bolt and inside the bolt carrier? or between the BCG and the upper reciver? Did all that gas come out of the ass end of the casing? or Did it travel down the gas tube and get hyper-pressurized.. (causing the blow out on the bottom of the bolt carriers)?

I'm trying to grasp what happened inside the chambers and rifles that caused the specific damage. I have been an AR-15, M-16, and M-4 armorer for only 3 months so I'm trying to learn... and this seems like a great problem to get educated on.

Thanks again for all of your guys help and time. I really appreciate it.