Muslim Family Values?

[SF18C]

Yeah we in the west need to be more open to this type of child rearing. You know this is happening in the US too but strangely not reported as much.

Father in 'honor killing' found guilty of murder
Brit ordered his daughter strangled for falling in love with wrong man

AP Updated: 6:01 p.m. ET June 11, 2007

LONDON - A father who ordered his daughter brutally slain for falling in love with the wrong man in a so-called “honor killing” was found guilty of murder on Monday.

Banaz Mahmod, 20, was strangled with a boot lace, stuffed into a suitcase and buried in a back garden.

Her death is the latest in an increasing trend of such killings in Britain, home to some 1.8 million Muslims. More than 100 homicides are under investigation as potential “honor killings.”

Mahmod Mahmod, 52, and his brother Ari Mahmod, 51, planned the killing during a family meeting, prosecutors told the court. Two others have pleaded guilty in the case. Two more suspects have fled the country. Sentencing is expected later this month.

The men accused the young woman of shaming her family by ending an abusive arranged marriage, becoming too Westernized and falling in love with a man who didn’t come from their Iraqi village. The Kurdish family came to Britain in 1998 when Banaz Mahmod was 11.

“She was my present, my future, my hope,” said Rahmat Suleimani, 29, Banaz Mahmod’s boyfriend.

During the three-month trial, prosecutors said Mahmod’s father beat his daughter for using hairspray and adopting other Western ways. Her uncle once told her she would have been “turned to ashes” if she were his daughter and had shamed the family by becoming involved with the Iranian Kurd, her sister 22-year-old Bekhal Mahmod testified.

Banaz Mahmod ran away from home when she was a teenager but returned when her father sent her an audio tape in which he warned he would kill her sisters, her mother and himself if she did not come home, her sister said.

Sister fearful of her own life
She was later hospitalized after her brother attacked her, the sister told the court. The brother said he had been paid by their father to finish her off but in the end was unable to do it, said the sister, who testified in a full black burqa. She said she still feared for her own life.

The years of Banaz Mahmod’s abuse were compounded by police officers who repeatedly dismissed her cries for help.

She first went to police in December 2005, saying she suspected her uncle was trying to kill her and her boyfriend. She sent police a letter naming the men who she thought would later kill her.

On New Year’s Eve, she was lured by her father to her grandmother’s home, where she suspected he planned to attack her after he forced her to gulp down brandy and approached her while wearing gloves. She escaped by breaking a window and was treated at a hospital.

Police dismissed her suspicions, and one officer, who is under investigation, considered charging her with damages for breaking her grandmother’s window.

Laying in her hospital bed after the escape, Mahmod recorded a dramatic video message saying she was “really scared.”

The videotape, taken by her boyfriend at the hospital, was shown to the jury during the trial.

Woman told family she wasn't seeing boyfriend
After she was released from the hospital, she returned home and tried to convince her family she had stopped seeing her boyfriend.

But friends told the family they spotted the couple together on Jan. 22, 2006.

Soon after, a group of men allegedly approached her boyfriend and tried to lure him into a car but he refused. It was that event that prompted Banaz Mahmod to go to police again. This time officers tried to persuade her to stay in a safe house. She refused, believing that her mother would protect her.

But her mother and father left her alone in the house the next day. Her boyfriend alerted police after time passed in which she failed to send him text messages.

Her body wasn’t discovered until three months later after police tracked phone records.

Britain has seen more than 25 women killed by their Muslim relatives in the past decade for offenses they believed brought shame on the family. More than 100 other homicides are under investigation as potential honor killings.
Some Muslim communities in Britain practice Sharia, or strict Islamic law.

“We’re seeing an increase around the world, due in part to the rise in Islamic fundamentalism,” said Diana Nammi with the London-based Iranian and Kurdish Women’s Rights Organization.

[echoes]

What a disgusting event. The father, uncle, and brother of this woman are not men, but cowards.

Holly

[Goggles Pizano]

But, but, Islam is the religion of peace...right?


NOT!

[incommin]

They think they are a peaceful religion. The problem is they are 800 years behind modern cultures and do not want to change.


Jim

[smp52]

Historically, honor killings have happened in conservative religious communities (atleast I remember some cases from conservative Hindu communities). Bottom line, in communities where women are viewed as subservient, they will always be prone to abuse. Muktar Mai case in Pakistan was one of an 'honor rape' where she was assaulted because her brother's alleged affair with someone's daughter. Disgusting.

From what I know, a strong segment of the British immigrant muslim population comes from the ultra conservative deobandi sunnis from South Asia (not in this case though). The demographic is far more labor oriented and hold very traditional views. I'll be optimistic and say I don't think this is going on here due to the different demographic makeup of our population. If that recent study is to be believed, one wouldn't have to worry about older parents doing this to their children, rather the youth that is at risk of following fundamentalism.

The west must continually push to ensure these abuses (including honor rapes, stoning women, throwing acid on women's faces disfiguring them, families punishing brides for dowry payments, etc) do not continue.

[Rogue]

Originally Posted by incommin

They think they are a peaceful religion. The problem is they are 800 years behind modern cultures and do not want to change.


Jim

Very controlling, and not very peaceful.

[echoes]

Originally Posted by smp52

"I'll be optimistic and say I don't think this is going on here due to the different demographic makeup of our population."

"The west must continually push to ensure these abuses (including honor rapes, stoning women, throwing acid on women's faces disfiguring them, families punishing brides for dowry payments, etc) do not continue."

The abuses against women in the U.S. do take place, everyday.

Even here in the midwest, when walking in to a grocery store or mall, I see muslim women covered with the black robes, walking three paces behind their man.

Custom obviously, but sometimes I just want to say to that man, hey look! You are in America!!! Cut the crap.

Holly

[Rogue]

Originally Posted by echoes

Custom obviously, but sometimes I just want to say to that man, hey look! You are in America!!! Cut the crap.

Holly

Well said Holly. Makes you wonder if "those" men have such low self esteem, that they have to treat their women that way to nourish their egos.

[incommin]

It is not just the Muslim religion or society. I once had a team member at 10th Grp (FT Devens) who was married to a Cambodian girl. He made her walk behind him, ride in the back seat, get his meals...... my wife and I liked her more than we liked him...and then my daughter married a second generation Mex-American from McAllen Texas. She got some of the same treatment for a while until I put a boot up his ass and threatened to break both his knees. Male dominated societies are everywhere.....


Jim

[smp52]

Originally Posted by echoes

The abuses against women in the U.S. do take place, everyday.

Even here in the midwest, when walking in to a grocery store or mall, I see muslim women covered with the black robes, walking three paces behind their man.

Custom obviously, but sometimes I just want to say to that man, hey look! You are in America!!! Cut the crap.

Holly

I was keeping my comments in line with physical abuse. How do you interefere in a situation where a woman walks three steps behind her man in a burkha? One can't nor can that be defined as abuse. However, when one crosses the line in to illegal acts by physically acting out on an individual (wife, daughter, whatever), that is crossing the line. If we go into the psychological aspect of abuse, we'd have to drag out men who've been nagged to death by their wives too.

The reason I state this is because our freedom of religion element gives quite a wide berth, but it also allows for better long term integration IMHO. It takes a few generations, but we've done a better job than anyone else in history. Look at France. - they've banned all symbols of religon from public institutions. Yet, despite these superficial secular measures, they're in deeper shit than us.

Abuse happens in regular households where women aren't subservient, also. Rich, poor, educated, and uneduated households beyond religion and race. The root cause is a man not respecting a woman and in an effort to control women he uses physical force (about Power)

I have no doubt the rates of abuse are probably higher, especially in the countries of origin (mideast, south asia, etc) due to socio-economic conditions. The decrease of abuse here has conicided with greater economic participation from women. Most of the muslim women in the United States are not of the example you stated. My experience comes from interaction with various groups in different locations when I was a student (Chicago, Urbana, Ithaca) and just observations from travel. Hell, I've seen boat loads of young muslim girls party their asses off in clubs/bars, too.

Individual decisions of custom and lifestyle may not be what you like, but I would focus on the acts of violence rather than individual custom. The first is indefensible. Pushing custom out before people are ready leads to situations like the French have to deal with. My .02 cents, YMMV.

[smp52]

Male dominated societies are everywhere.....

My sister's friend is married into a very conservative household. While her husband is quite progressive, the overall subculture they're from requires a certain code from women (always have their heads covered, don't hang around with other men and chat, etc). It's weird though, she participates in the family business from a very authoritative standpoint (has the ability to call shots), yet has to deal with some shitty customs.

Getting women working and participating in the economy is a proven method to reduce abuse. I don't think it will ever go away unfortunately (just like other vices), but can be vigorously kept at bay.

[echoes]

Originally Posted by smp52

How do you interefere in a situation where a woman walks three steps behind her man in a burkha? One can't nor can that be defined as abuse. However, when one crosses the line in to illegal acts by physically acting out on an individual, that is crossing the line.

By stopping the man, and saying cut the crap. We differ on our definitions of "abuse."

Originally Posted by smp52

The root cause is a man not respecting a woman and in an effort to control women he uses physical force (about Power).

The root cause is b/c the man is a coward at heart IMO.

Originally Posted by smp52

My experience comes from interaction with various groups in different locations when I was a student (Chicago, Urbana, Ithaca) and just observations from travel.

I am just speaking from personal experience.

Originally Posted by smp52

Individual decisions of custom and lifestyle may not be what you like, but I would focus on the acts of violence rather than individual custom.

In this instance, they are one in the same IMO.

Holly

[smp52]

Originally Posted by echoes

By stopping the man, and saying cut the crap. We differ on our definitions of "abuse."

By the way, people have different definitions of whatever they find culturally acceptable and I know people who've had 'you're in America" line thrown at for simply wearing traditional garb for a wedding out of xenophobia. It's nobody's business what their (my) personal decisions are as long as they are law abiding and don't affect the public. What is publicly acceptable varies from community to community within this nation, too (city, county, state, etc.)

The root cause is b/c the man is a coward at heart IMO.

Or doesn't really know better. There are absolute oafs and backward ass people out there.

In this instance, they are one in the same IMO.

Bottom line is people are shepherded by the laws of the land. Making allowances for 'honor' situations in the communities/countries where these folks come from means it's ok there. When we (the west) raise hell about honor murder, rape, physical punishment, headway can be made because they are indefensible arguments (not saying an idiot won't argue for it). Telling woman to rip their burkhas off and walk together with men isn't going to work until those women have the means to (economic/education) to fight for their status.

Speaking of this, how does the Federal Government still tolerate polygamist colonies? It's illegal and a proven recipie for female abuse. One of the leaders was recently caught, but the colonies exist. Right in our back yards....

[sg1987]

Originally Posted by smp52

If we go into the psychological aspect of abuse, we'd have to drag out men who've been nagged to death by their wives too.

I realize that this is a serious topic, but that is some funny stuff right there!

[echoes]

Originally Posted by smp52

It's nobody's business what their personal decisions are as long as they are law abiding and don't affect the public.

Originally Posted by smp52

What is publicly acceptable varies from community to community within this nation, too (city, county, state, etc.)

It is this type of thinking that allows abusers to think they can get away with it, IMO.

Holly