Our Form of Government

QRQ 30 · 04-08-2006, 15:14

Its a little quiet this weenend so let me throw some poop in the fire. This morning I again saw a comment which seems to aggravate me more and more.

Quote:

Because we're a constitutional republic, not a democracy.

More and more when I see this statement I think of The German Demoncratic Republic, the People's Republic of China, the People's Democratic Republic of Korea, the Republic of Vietnam, etc. In additionn, all of the Republics which made up the Soviet Union.

We all know that we aren't a true Democracy, hell I'm not sure any such thing ever existed except in theory. In reality, some of the most stable countries in the world are Constitutional Monarchies.

IMO there are two basic systems in this world, Capitalism and Communism/Socialism. It seems that the far left are leaning more and more towards Socialism. I remember Nikita Kruschev slamming his shoe down on the table and saying he would conquer us from within, without a shot being fired. Socialism is attractive for the poor but its results have never been successful. The main ingredient is a merciless Dictator and in hs absence the communist state fails.

I went to San Fernando Valley College, (now Cal State Univ Northridge) in the early 60's. We considered the Poli Sci and Theater Arts majors as totally whacko. Unfortunately they are the one's now telling us how to live. The Poli Sci students have an excuse but WTF background do the Entertainers have other than mass circulation.

It seems that the harping by pseudo intellectuals on our form of government started about the time the educators of the country started brainwashing our children on the benefits of socialism. It may be disguised, but socialism none the less IMNSHO. I didn't think so at the time but looking back now maybe the House Un-American Activities Committee had the right idea targeting the entertainment industry. I think we need a new one now!!

I am rambling but to put an end to my rant: We are a capitalistic country Of the preple, By the people and For the people. Put whatever tag on it you want but we aren't no f***ing People's Republic.

TFM · 04-09-2006, 01:05

Constitutional Republic... I think we ought to just stick with the term we have. Sure reality makes it something different, but we all no that nothing is perfect. If demorcracy is the standard we will move closer to it. I believe you are right about us being capitalist. We are damn near perfect at that. It is that free spirit of enterprise that started this country anyway. Socialists may have some good ideals, but it causes folk to rely too heavily on the government. Who wants the government micromanaging everything. Right now, Americans could have lots of control over what goes on. I just believe we are unmotivated or too preoccupied when it comes to exercising it. Apparently, the French are not.

TFM

**The Reaper** · 04-09-2006, 08:41

The founding fathers fought hard to establish a democratically elected constitutional republic and not a democracy.

In a true democracy, you have total mob rule. In any and all issues, the mob rules. 51% prefer slavery? Slavery it is! 50% +1 want to start or end a war? Done! Redistribution of wealth with a 95% tax on all taxpayers in the upper half of income? One swing voter (or one who can't understand the issue/gets spun by the media, not realizing he is upper half), and it is a deal! This is insanity, has been tried, and failed before.

Just because we do not like the name of a thing, or that unsavory others have misused the words, is no reason to dislike or fear words, especially when they accurately describe the system we have.

TR

QRQ 30 · 04-09-2006, 09:04

Quote:

We all know that we aren't a true Democracy, hell I'm not sure any such thing ever existed except in theory.

I realize we are a Republic. I said so in the Pledge of Allegiance we said at the beginning of school for 12 years. That included "Under God" also.

We are a;lso a nation intended to have "freedom and justice for all". Not many constitutional Rebuplics can say that. We are a democratic Republic in which the citizenry elect representatives to act for them. OTOH I have heard it described as a country where the sheep elect idiots to carry on their business.

I'm not arguing words, I am tired of others arguing words. We all know what the president or I or anyone else means when we speak of a democracy and don't need some pseudo intellectual to correct us with some lofty, really meaningless definition. Almost every country in the world has a constitution of some sort and are republics. That included the Soviet Union and even Iraq although it was life threatening to run against Stalin or Sadahm.

D9 (RIP) · 04-09-2006, 13:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by QRQ 30

I'm not arguing words, I am tired of others arguing words. We all know what the president or I or anyone else means when we speak of a democracy and don't need some pseudo intellectual to correct us with some lofty, really meaningless definition. Almost every country in the world has a constitution of some sort and are republics. That included the Soviet Union and even Iraq although it was life threatening to run against Stalin or Sadahm.

I personally find it useful to recall that we are a Constitutional Republic when someone from the American Left wants to undermine our constitutional liberties (like those guaranteed in the second amendment, for instance) because they have a public opinion poll showing it is democratically popular (such as was the case for a certain period of time following the Reagan assassination attempt). This has been the method de jure of the liberal judiciary for several decades. The greatest benefactor of American capitalism and freedom is our Constitution, literally interpreted, IMHO. I have always taken references to Constitutional Republic to remind us of the Bill of Rights which should remain inviolate as the bedrock of our polity.

QRQ 30 · 04-09-2006, 14:33

To be honest, Constitutional Republic is a new term for me in reference to our government. I was taught we were a Democratic Republic. Iraq was a constitutional republic as were/are numerous republics including Communist regimes. The difference is in some of the constitutions it specifies that the various "rtepresentatives" are appointed by the reigning president/premier or political party.. He is elected but who could run against Stalin and win -- alive??

We elect our representatives. Thjere are few appointed cabinet posts and they are still subject to approval. That is a democratic process. At least to me.

**Roguish Lawyer** · 04-09-2006, 14:40

Well said, TR. Tyranny of the majority is still tyranny.

**The Reaper** · 04-09-2006, 14:47

In a true democracy, everyone votes on all group decisions.

Our founders realized that this was impractical.

Instead, we democratically freely elect people who will vote on our behalf. Those are our representatives. We have three branches of government, of which the Executive and Legislative are elected (technically, the Chief Executive is elected by a representational body as well, the Electoral College). The Judicial Branch is appointed, but is supposed to be confirmed by the upper Legislative Branch (the Senate). The Legislative has two bodies which we popularly elect, the House of Representatives and the Senate. The three bodies are intended to both support, and to provide checks against one another. Note that when this system was developed and the Constitution written, there was no similar system in existence.

As I understand it, we are a republic of states, with a system based on the Constitution. We are what we are, whether we like it or not.

IMHO, any state which has to use the words democratic, people's, or republic in their name does not reflect any of those concepts.

TR

QRQ 30 · 04-09-2006, 15:26

I say again. I really, really know we wren't a true democracy. I said that I don't know if such a government ever existed except in theory. No body professes this nation to be a 100% democracy. We are a Federal Republic in which our leaders and representatives are elected through the democratic process.

That's the probhlem of arguing words. We tend to argue about words that were never said.

Please don't argue withe the POTUS whrn he says we are promoting democracy for the Middle East. I don't think he means "true. 100%" democracy. Neither do I for one.

I believe in the Republic for which the flag stands, one nation, under God with liberty and justice for all. Call it what you want! I only know of one other Democratic Republic. That WAS the DDR and they indeed intended to cause confusion with the Bundes Republik! (Federal Republic of Germany). They were Democratic in name only!

**The Reaper** · 04-09-2006, 15:49

Check out the following countries, note any commonalities?

Democratic People's Republic of Korea
Lao People's Democratic Republic
People's Republic of China

According to the CIA World Factbook, we live in a Constitution-based federal republic; with a strong democratic tradition.

TR

QRQ 30 · 04-09-2006, 16:08

Quote:

we live in a Constitution-based federal republic; with a strong democratic tradition.

Sigh!

Dats what I've been trying to say.

Here's a few others I named in my original post, The German Democratic Republic, The Republic of Vietnam, and all of the Republics in the old Soviet Union.

aricbcool · 04-09-2006, 18:09

If I might throw in my .02, I think the reason we see so many regime ruled countries using the R word is that it has earned a connotation as noble and right.

I actually looked up the definition because Republic has so much baggage associated with it and came up with the following:

http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=republic

Quote:

1.
a. A political order whose head of state is not a monarch and in modern times is usually a president.
b. A nation that has such a political order.

2.
a. A political order in which the supreme power lies in a body of citizens who are entitled to vote for officers and representatives responsible to them.
b. A nation that has such a political order.

Looking at the 2nd definition I think that it would be quite appealing to a group of communists to think that "the supreme power lies in a body of citizens, etc. etc."

As far as "true democracy goes", the closest historical example that comes to mind is Classical Athens.

http://www.wsu.edu/~dee/GREECE/ATHENS.HTM

Quote:

"From 508 to 502 BC, Cleisthenes began a series of major reforms that would produce Athenian democracy. He enfranchised as citizens all free men living in Athens and Attica (the area surrounding Athens). He established a council which would be the chief arm of government with all executive and administrative control. Every citizen over the age of thirty was eligible to sit on this council; each year the members of the council would be chosen by lot. The Assembly, which included all male citizens, was allowed to veto any of the council's proposals and was the only branch of government that could declare war. In 487, long after Cleisthenes, the Athenians added the final aspect of Athenian democracy proper: ostracism. The Assembly could vote (voting was done on potsherds called ostra ) on expelling citizens from the state for a period of ten years. This ostracism would guarantee that individuals who were contemplating seizing power would be removed from the country before they got too powerful."

I think that what QRQ_30 said regarding Capitalism vs Communism/Socialism highlights the true difference between nations. Because CC&S are ideas. Whether Democratic, Republic, or Theocratic, the driving idea behind these systems of government is what shapes them. The 'ics are just a label on the system that is used to accomplish these ideas.

So whatever we are, what is important is that capitalism, the idea of private property and individual enterprise (and all the individual freedoms that come with that idea) is the driving force behind our system of government.

If Capitalism goes away, if individual freedom goes away, all we have left is a system by which we are oppressed.

Regards,
Aric