09-14-2005, 20:30
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#1
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Quiet Professional
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: NC for now
Posts: 2,418
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SFAUC/SFARTEC
Comment on some SFAUC threads I saw. When groups were told to run a SFAUC, 7th Group was the only one to take advantage at first (COL. Cambria, Group Commander at the time is to thank for this). Most groups just paper drilled it. 7th Built a committee of ex SFARTEC Instructors with a big budget. I was lucky to work at both Schools. The majority of people who went thru both Schools 2000 to 2002 said SFAUC was above and beyond the current SFARTEC. Believe me im loyal to both having been a member of both schools I have no resentment. But there was a lot of resentment between the two Schools at the time. Mostly people up the chain of command. We individual Instructors on the ground always helped each other out like true professionals. Civilian schools are always good to go to. SFAUC was the answer to SOT going away. It gave the chance for all in Group to learn how to survive a gunfight and it couldn't have been started at a better time or just in time. I can only speak for 7th Group but when I retired in 2003 7th started a SOTIC Committee that was attached to SFAUC. About 20 personnel in all. Which is a large number of people for a number of men to commit to training for any Group, but it's worth it. I think the days of being called instructors in Baggy Pants have changed because of this Program. There are many enemies in Group of this program. Mostly because they know nothing about this type of work and cant stand the pockets on the sleeves (Listen up CSM'S) not all, many CSM'S saw the necessity of this program. It’s still going strong but always fighting to stay afloat. Bottom line a SFAUC program in Groups depends on the chain of Command support. Lucky for us in 7th we always had great support. Cambria, Waddell......etc
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Sounds like a s#*t sandwhich, but I'll fight anyone, I'm in.
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kgoerz is offline
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09-14-2005, 20:46
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#2
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I agree. I went through the 7th GP SFAUC and loved it.
Good instructors and good POI.
Nice job.
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Doc is offline
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09-14-2005, 22:02
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#3
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Yep, from what I hear, they done good with SFAUC.
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Somewhere a True Believer is training to kill you. He is training with minimal food or water, in austere conditions, training day and night. The only thing clean on him is his weapon and he made his web gear. He doesn't worry about what workout to do - his ruck weighs what it weighs, his runs end when the enemy stops chasing him. This True Believer is not concerned about 'how hard it is;' he knows either he wins or dies. He doesn't go home at 17:00, he is home.
He knows only The Cause.
Still want to quit?
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NousDefionsDoc is offline
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09-15-2005, 06:32
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#4
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Quiet Professional
Join Date: Feb 2004
Posts: 178
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I had heard that 7th ran a really good SFAUC. The guys I know that attended there said that it was awesome. I went to 10th group SFAUC which was great also. I was in 20th group at the time and going from 1 ft above sea level in FL to Carson kicked my butt!
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Kingfisher is offline
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09-15-2005, 18:57
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#5
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Quiet Professional
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SFAUC
Some guys have written me about other units SFAUC Programs being good. Like I said in the thread I can only speak for 7th Group. Wasn't criticizing any other groups. Last apology.... im an FNG here im doing my push-ups for using names in the above thread. Won’t happen again
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Sounds like a s#*t sandwhich, but I'll fight anyone, I'm in.
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kgoerz is offline
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09-15-2005, 19:05
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#6
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by kgoerz
Some guys have written me about other units SFAUC Programs being good. Like I said in the thread I can only speak for 7th Group. Wasn't criticizing any other groups. Last apology.... im an FNG here im doing my push-ups for using names in the above thread. Won’t happen again
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I think that the Group Commanders are okay to use.
At least the cool ones, like 7th Group has had recently.
TR
__________________
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood; who strives valiantly; who errs, who comes short again and again, because there is no effort without error and shortcoming; but who does actually strive to do the deeds; who knows great enthusiasms, the great devotions; who spends himself in a worthy cause; who at the best knows in the end the triumph of high achievement, and who at the worst, if he fails, at least fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who neither know victory nor defeat." - President Theodore Roosevelt, 1910
De Oppresso Liber 01/20/2025
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The Reaper is offline
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09-15-2005, 19:16
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#7
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Quiet Professional
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SFAUC
Finally someone said recover..........
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Sounds like a s#*t sandwhich, but I'll fight anyone, I'm in.
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kgoerz is offline
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09-15-2005, 19:19
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#8
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by The Reaper
I think that the Group Commanders are okay to use.
At least the cool ones, like 7th Group has had recently.
TR
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Well that won't do at all. I had him all spun up and worried he'd done something wrong and you let him off the hook... 
__________________
Somewhere a True Believer is training to kill you. He is training with minimal food or water, in austere conditions, training day and night. The only thing clean on him is his weapon and he made his web gear. He doesn't worry about what workout to do - his ruck weighs what it weighs, his runs end when the enemy stops chasing him. This True Believer is not concerned about 'how hard it is;' he knows either he wins or dies. He doesn't go home at 17:00, he is home.
He knows only The Cause.
Still want to quit?
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NousDefionsDoc is offline
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09-15-2005, 19:57
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#9
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Quiet Professional
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Avatar
That pic has to be a JPG or GIF I couldnt put it in
__________________
Sounds like a s#*t sandwhich, but I'll fight anyone, I'm in.
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kgoerz is offline
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09-15-2005, 20:18
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#10
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Asset
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Ft. Bragg
Posts: 53
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Question from a non-SF type. My understanding is that all of the Groups have now or will have SFAUC organic under the new MTOE (when I was in 5th Group I think we had to take the SFAUC committee out of hide).
My question: is it more valuable to have the course at each of the individual Groups, or to have the training consolidated in one location? What is the benefit/cost to having it at each Group vs. consolidated?
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Marauder06 is offline
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09-15-2005, 20:42
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#11
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sfauc
Having it at each Group is the answer. If it were in one location it would just be another School like in SWC. Fewer slots. Five active groups mean five SFAUC Schools. One location means one School. If it’s on the MTOE it won’t take guys off of Teams like it did at the beginning. Plus each Group can implement their POI to what training they need most. You don’t have a bunch of O'S watching over you like in SWC. When I left there was no POI written in stone. I know SWC has a POI but any Group commander or just a good SFAUC NCOIC can run it as he see's fit. We changed ours all the time. When the guys were going to OEF we went to company level ops. Lots of vehicle stuff, longer range marksmanship.....etc
__________________
Sounds like a s#*t sandwhich, but I'll fight anyone, I'm in.
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kgoerz is offline
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10-09-2005, 14:15
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#12
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I went through 1st Groups very first SFAUC course. It was given to the advanced skills section who then pulled all the former C-1-1 guys who had been through SFARTEC to actually teach the course. I want to say that at that time there was no real POI so they just used the SFARTEC POI because it worked well. I also remember it being Ball numbing cold in Jan - Feb when we did it.
I also went to the 1st Group SOTIC course which was run by Chief Haugen and Jay Lathrop. Cheif really knew his shit when it came to precision rifles.
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FROST18E is offline
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10-09-2005, 15:23
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#13
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by FROST18E
I went through 1st Groups very first SFAUC course. It was given to the advanced skills section who then pulled all the former C-1-1 guys who had been through SFARTEC to actually teach the course. I want to say that at that time there was no real POI so they just used the SFARTEC POI because it worked well. I also remember it being Ball numbing cold in Jan - Feb when we did it.
I also went to the 1st Group SOTIC course which was run by Chief Haugen and Jay Lathrop. Cheif really knew his shit when it came to precision rifles.
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Chief still does.
He works for Remington. 
TR
__________________
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood; who strives valiantly; who errs, who comes short again and again, because there is no effort without error and shortcoming; but who does actually strive to do the deeds; who knows great enthusiasms, the great devotions; who spends himself in a worthy cause; who at the best knows in the end the triumph of high achievement, and who at the worst, if he fails, at least fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who neither know victory nor defeat." - President Theodore Roosevelt, 1910
De Oppresso Liber 01/20/2025
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The Reaper is offline
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10-09-2005, 17:30
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#14
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Location: Fayetteville NC
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by mara
Question from a non-SF type. My understanding is that all of the Groups have now or will have SFAUC organic under the new MTOE (when I was in 5th Group I think we had to take the SFAUC committee out of hide).
My question: is it more valuable to have the course at each of the individual Groups, or to have the training consolidated in one location? What is the benefit/cost to having it at each Group vs. consolidated?
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Ideally you would have schools at each Group with a central training area for updates. The reason I say this is due to "inbred" training that I have seen, as I am sure all of you have seen, where a mistake becomes part of the Lesson Outline and taught as gospel. The problem is that sometimes the central training course becomes so rooted that they are difficult to change. That is usually taken care of by NCOICs that listen to new instructors as they arrive to learn new updated TTPs that can now be passed to the other groups as well.
Share the wealth and stop this nonsense of "knowledge is power and I keep all my knowledge as it makes me more powerful".
The same was supposed to happen with SOTIC and the Unit ran Target Interdiction Courses. SOTIC was to be a central training area with the units running their own courses to produce Level II snipers. they would then choose the best fo their Level IIs to go to SOTIC Level I. However suddenly everyone wanted to make their Unit Ran TIC a Level I as well. When unit to unit the level of training and standards change from commander to commander that just is not possible. The same has occured with the unit ran SFAUCs.
The unit ran Target Interdiction Courses were to be based on the needs of the unit and not dictated by SWC. This allows the unit commander to decide what he needs for his Level II sniper to accomplish his, the commander's, needs and missions. I would really like to see this happen and we cold then stop teaching basics and teach more advanced TTPs in our SOTIC. With the units teaching their Level II the basics we could emphasis the more advanced TTPs.
My wish, hope it happens sometime and wish that the units would get back to training up their Level IIs. Like that is going to happen.
I also believe in the Jolly Geen Giant and Santa Clause.
__________________
Hold Hard guys
Rick B.
Knowledge is knowing a tomato is a fruit.
Wisdom is knowing it is great on a hamburger but not so great sticking one up your ass.
Author - Richard.
Experience is what you get right after you need it.
Author unknown. 
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longrange1947 is offline
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10-09-2005, 17:35
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#15
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Quiet Professional
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Well said Master Sniper. But you left off the "risk avoidance by following the low risk POI to the letter" part.
Any deviations will be met with a swift and final "No Dessert" stamping of the offender's meal card.
__________________
Somewhere a True Believer is training to kill you. He is training with minimal food or water, in austere conditions, training day and night. The only thing clean on him is his weapon and he made his web gear. He doesn't worry about what workout to do - his ruck weighs what it weighs, his runs end when the enemy stops chasing him. This True Believer is not concerned about 'how hard it is;' he knows either he wins or dies. He doesn't go home at 17:00, he is home.
He knows only The Cause.
Still want to quit?
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NousDefionsDoc is offline
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