First guerrilla war

[Maytime]

I did some searches, sorry if I'm repeating something. What do you think (or know) is the first guerrilla war? The earliest I cant think of is King Darius' [unsuccessful] campaign against the Scythians in ~500 BC.

[aricbcool]

Maytime,

I don't know if you've seen this thread, but something similar has been covered here, in regards to favorite insurgent leader:

http://www.professionalsoldiers.com/...vorite+general

My question to you is: What parameters would you put on the term "guerrila war". What qualifies a conflict as such. The term itself is relatively new, for sure.

Anyways, check out the above thread for ideas on that, and maybe we can get a discussion going.

Regards,
Aric

[Peregrino]

Originally Posted by Maytime

I did some searches, sorry if I'm repeating something. What do you think (or know) is the first guerrilla war? The earliest I cant think of is King Darius' [unsuccessful] campaign against the Scythians in ~500 BC.

You need to look a lot further back than that. Try starting with the Old Testament. As the written version of the oral history/traditions of the Jewish people it chronicles all kinds of slaughter that today would be considered guerrilla warfare. It can also point you towards other sources. Just remember - what we call guerrilla warfare (subjugated peoples rising up against oppressors) was routine in the ancient and classical worlds. So was failure. FWIW - Peregrino

[Maytime]

aricbcool, I took your advice and read almost all of that thread, but my question is a bit different; I should've added something like what is the earliest documented guerrilla war, or perhaps the most one-sided conflict.

Originally Posted by aricbcool

The term itself is relatively new, for sure.

Guerrilla (spanish for little war) is a term invented in Spain to describe the tactics used to resist
the French regime instituted by Napoleon Bonaparte, so I guess your idea of new is a bit different than mine, no worries

Peregrino, I thought about conflicts that were outlined in Biblical references, but I wasn't sure about the historical accuracy of it. Thanks for the heads-up.

[aricbcool]

Originally Posted by Maytime

aricbcool, I took your advice and read almost all of that thread, but my question is a bit different; I should've added something like what is the earliest documented guerrilla war, or perhaps the most one-sided conflict.

Guerrilla (spanish for little war) is a term invented in Spain to describe the tactics used to resist
the French regime instituted by Napoleon Bonaparte, so I guess your idea of new is a bit different than mine, no worries

I know you're question is different from the thread I mentioned. However, I thought some guidelines on your definition of guerrilla warfare might be beneficial to this thread, as the term can be applied differently.

For instance, the literal answer to your question could be that the earliest documented guerrilla war was the Peninsular war since this was the first use of the term. Everything before that was an "insurgency".

Of course, a very liberal answer would be the campaign of Darius, or insurgencies in the OT of the Bible. It depends on the answer You are looking for.

As far as new or old, if we're talking about the earliest example being Darius in 500ish BC, then yeah, 1808 AD is pretty new.

Accuracy of the OT? I believe Darius is mentioned in there somewhere. See Ezra Chapter 4.

http://www.biblegateway.com/quicksea...&qs_version=50

To get back to the topic at hand, what makes the Persian-Scythian war of 513-513 B.C. a guerrilla war?

Regards,
Aric

[Maytime]

Originally Posted by aricbcool

what makes the Persian-Scythian war of 513-513 B.C. a guerrilla war?

What makes it a guerrilla war was, basically, that the Scythians were a nomadic people, vastly outnumbered by the Persians, and as Peregrino said, were a subjugated people rising against their opressors.

The Scythians used their knowledge of the terrain and environment to their advantage; their land, I believe, was or was similar to the Russian steppes. When Darius' posse rolled in, the Scythians came to grips with the immense size and power of the Persian army, and chose to make their land desolate so Darius couldn't use their own resources against them, which in turn forced Darius' army to leave Scythia.
At this point, the Scythians harassed the Persians as the door hit their asses on the way out of Scythia.

Everything before that was an "insurgency".

Excerpt from dictionary.com:
insurgency--
n : an organized rebellion aimed at overthrowing a constituted government through the use of subversion and armed conflict.

guerrilla--
n : a member of an irregular armed force that fights a stronger force by sabotage and harassment

I think that this marks the difference between a guerrilla war and an insurgency, since the latter deals with a occupying force, while in this case the Persians never got a chance to move in.

I know, guerrillas can fight an established entity, but by definintion an insurgency can only fight such an entity, while guerrillas can clash with foreign or domestic threats. It's all stupid semantics

[Bravo1-3]

The Peoples Front of Judea? Or was it the Judea Peoples Front?

OK, Comic relief over...

[boat guy]

Maytime,
The definitions you gave are good, there is a thread here with the Joint Pub 1-02 definitions . Probably the best source for use herein. As far as the veracity of the OT, it cannot be disputed that it is a historical document used by scholars in the study of the ancient near east. Though some of the OT is faith based doctrine, much of it is simply a history and has been verified time and time again. While I agree that your example is good, take a look at David in Samuel (probably around 1000BC). David is temporarily deposed as King by his son who "legally" becomes King as he garners the support of all the kingdom. David had his own professional army composed of Hittites, Perruzites and Jebusites (Resident aliens). With his professional armies he retook his throne fighting against the army of Israel. (2 Sam Ch 18) . While this is one of the first documented insurgencies with guerilla warfare that I can find, as Peregrino has pointed out, it is by no means the first instance.

[Peregrino]

Originally Posted by Maytime

Excerpt from dictionary.com:
insurgency--
n : an organized rebellion aimed at overthrowing a constituted government through the use of subversion and armed conflict.

guerrilla--
n : a member of an irregular armed force that fights a stronger force by sabotage and harassment

I think that this marks the difference between a guerrilla war and an insurgency, since the latter deals with a occupying force, while in this case the Persians never got a chance to move in.

I know, guerrillas can fight an established entity, but by definintion an insurgency can only fight such an entity, while guerrillas can clash with foreign or domestic threats. It's all stupid semantics

Maytime - Semantics are actually fairly important, they help define the argument. Though I will admit to playing loose with them when it suits my purposes, especially when I don't agree completely. This is one of those cases. You're confusing methods and means. GW is a tactic (or strategy - depends on who's doing the arguing). Think of it as a TTP that a strategist uses to achieve goals by/through the application of military force - usually asymetrically, by necessity. As such it is not limited to Insurgencies which are one particular type of political/military conflict. I probably should have done a better job in my initial response and concentrated on the asymetric aspects instead of confusing (narrowing) the issue by mentioning subjgated peoples. Take a more modern example (Det 101 in WWII - one of my favorites, or anything on either side of the SEA wars) and apply the corrolary to the ancient world. Don't arbitrarily restrict your search by concentrating on one particular type of warfare.

This is just the tip of the iceberg; get some of the older guys wound up about Unconventional Operations/Warfare - is it a mission or an environment? Food for thought - Peregrino

[Solid]

If you play loose with the definitions, whereby GW becomes generally closer to asymmetrical warfare in general, the first cases in history are the very first conflicts between agrarian settlements and barbarians or pastoralists. I'll edit this post with dates when I get out of class. I would really argue that there are so many different ways to look at GW- from something really specific like Mao to the wider definitions provided by O'Neill and HFCUI, that dating GW is difficult.

JMO,

Solid

[The Reaper]

You need to look at Unconventional Warfare (UW) as well as GW and insurgency.

I agree, the Joint Pub is the definitive source for us.

TR