Stealerships and Car Troubles

[The Reaper]

Z06:

All great points.

Not bashing Ford, I have owned cars from all of the Big Three, Porsche, Nissan, Triumph, Toyota, Honda, Acura, and probably a couple of other that escape me. My very first car was a '67 Mustang. I loved it.

But since you brought it up, the last Ford I owned was an Explorer I bought new in 1993.

Within a few thousand miles, the O2 sensor went out on my way to work one morning, and the thing started smoking like a fiend.

I limped into a dealership an hour or so from home.

When the Service Department got around to me, they asked where I bought the car. When I named another dealer, they told me to have a seat. They eventually checked the vehicle out, told me it was the O2 sensor, and to call someone to come get me, that I could have the truck back in a couple of days.

Now bear in mind that an O2 sensor is a plug, much like a spark plug, that screws into the exhaust pipe. It has one wire connected to it. Given one in hand and access to the underside of the car, and the proper wrench, it would take a monkey maybe ten minutes to replace one.

When I asked why the delay, they said that they did not have the part in stock, and that they would have to get one from the nearest larger town dealership the next day or so on their scheduled parts run. Basically, I was an inconvenience to them.

After I leaned on them for a few hours, they sent someone at lunchtime to pick up the part on a run. I finally got the vehicle back after eight hours, about 1600, having missed an entire work day. No one ever called or followed up, or asked me what I thought of the service.

Contrast this to the local Acura dealership. I take my car in for an oil change. I did not buy the car from them. The service writer inquires about any other issues I might have with the car. They give me an option of a loaner, or waiting no more than an hour. They wash and vacuum my car. The lounge is comfortable and clean, with a TV, magazines, papers, and free coffee and sodas. I just went in last week for a minor recall issue. Car is now over four years old. I get a new loaner with 2,000 miles on the clock while they work on mine. They also check a minor complaint, and fix an item which is no longer under warranty for free, as a "good faith" repair. The cashier asks me about my experience. The service manager knows me (and my family) by name, and calls me. Acura also calls a couple of days later, and asks me if they can email me a formal survey.

That is why I no longer consider Ford when car shopping. The designs, minus the new Mustang, are uninspired, the performance is sub-standard, the products are poorly assembled of low-quality materials, the efficiency of the powertrains is poor, the prices are high, the depreciation unfavorable, the sales departments the worst of the bad old days, the service departments uncaring, the warranties barely honored, and to top it all off, the Ford Foundation supports a host of liberal causes that I do not appreciate, and do not care to have any portion of my money going to.

I could tell the same sort of stories about every brand I have driven, except for the Japanese owned companies. I do not think that the US assembled Japanese models are fully up to the Japanese standard, but they seem to be closer than the US brands, and with a tremendously better attitude throughout the ownership experience to boot. I moved my Mother (who had never owned an import) from a Caddy to an Acura RL. I was worried about the Caddy stranding her somewhere. She is very happy.

I am sorry that the corporate leadership, unions, and greedy dealers have managed to wreck what was formerly a quality, world-leading US industry. It is unfathomable to me why the Americans putting parts on a car on the line in Detroit for $45 an hour cannot do it as well as Americans in Marysville, Ohio doing it for $20 an hour, but that seems to be the way it is these days.

Fool me once, shame on you; you fool me twice....

Just my .02, YMMV.

TR

[kgoerz]

My wifes truck which wasn't even a year old blew its engine. Ford said the warranty didn't cover it since she was using the Truck for her Horshoeing Business. She had the placards on the side of the truck when she brought it in. They would of never known otherwise. So now I am paying for a new Truck that we don't even have. We had to just leave it at the dealership. That was my fifth and last vehicle I will ever buy from ford.
If your a volunteer fireman make sure you take your lights out if you are going to use the warranty. That will void your warranty also. What a bunch of crooks. This was Lafeyette Ford in Fayetteville that did this.

[The Reaper]

Originally Posted by kgoerz

My wifes truck which wasn't even a year old blew its engine. Ford said the warranty didn't cover it since she was using the Truck for her Horshoeing Business. She had the placards on the side of the truck when she brought it in. They would of never known otherwise. So now I am paying for a new Truck that we don't even have. We had to just leave it at the dealership. That was my fifth and last vehicle I will ever buy from ford.
If your a volunteer fireman make sure you take your lights out if you are going to use the warranty. That will void your warranty also. What a bunch of crooks. This was Lafeyette Ford in Fayetteville that did this.

LaFayette has a long history of being difficult to deal with.

Does Ford not warranty the commercial vehicles they sell?

Sorry for your troubles, K.

Didn't mean to turn this informative thread into a Ford bash. I could tell the same stories on Dodge, or Porsche, for that matter.

TR

[zuluzerosix]

Originally Posted by The Reaper

Z06:

All great points.

Not bashing Ford, I have owned cars from all of the Big Three, Porsche, Nissan, Triumph, Toyota, Honda, Acura, and probably a couple of other that escape me. My very first car was a '67 Mustang. I loved it.

But since you brought it up, the last Ford I owned was an Explorer I bought new in 1993.

Within a few thousand miles, the O2 sensor went out on my way to work one morning, and the thing started smoking like a fiend.

I limped into a dealership an hour or so from home.

When the Service Department got around to me, they asked where I bought the car. When I named another dealer, they told me to have a seat. They eventually checked the vehicle out, told me it was the O2 sensor, and to call someone to come get me, that I could have the truck back in a couple of days.

Now bear in mind that an O2 sensor is a plug, much like a spark plug, that screws into the exhaust pipe. It has one wire connected to it. Given one in hand and access to the underside of the car, and the proper wrench, it would take a monkey maybe ten minutes to replace one.

When I asked why the delay, they said that they did not have the part in stock, and that they would have to get one from the nearest larger town dealership the next day or so on their scheduled parts run. Basically, I was an inconvenience to them.

After I leaned on them for a few hours, they sent someone at lunchtime to pick up the part on a run. I finally got the vehicle back after eight hours, about 1600, having missed an entire work day. No one ever called or followed up, or asked me what I thought of the service.

Contrast this to the local Acura dealership. I take my car in for an oil change. I did not buy the car from them. The service writer inquires about any other issues I might have with the car. They give me an option of a loaner, or waiting no more than an hour. They wash and vacuum my car. The lounge is comfortable and clean, with a TV, magazines, papers, and free coffee and sodas. I just went in last week for a minor recall issue. Car is now over four years old. I get a new loaner with 2,000 miles on the clock while they work on mine. They also check a minor complaint, and fix an item which is no longer under warranty for free, as a "good faith" repair. The cashier asks me about my experience. The service manager knows me (and my family) by name, and calls me. Acura also calls a couple of days later, and asks me if they can email me a formal survey.

That is why I no longer consider Ford when car shopping. The designs, minus the new Mustang, are uninspired, the performance is sub-standard, the products are poorly assembled of low-quality materials, the efficiency of the powertrains is poor, the prices are high, the depreciation unfavorable, the sales departments the worst of the bad old days, the service departments uncaring, the warranties barely honored, and to top it all off, the Ford Foundation supports a host of liberal causes that I do not appreciate, and do not care to have any portion of my money going to.

I could tell the same sort of stories about every brand I have driven, except for the Japanese owned companies. I do not think that the US assembled Japanese models are fully up to the Japanese standard, but they seem to be closer than the US brands, and with a tremendously better attitude throughout the ownership experience to boot. I moved my Mother (who had never owned an import)from a Caddy to an Acura RL. I was worried about the Caddy stranding her somewhere. She is very happy.

I am sorry that the corporate leadership, unions, and greedy dealers have managed to wreck what was formerly a quality, world-leading US industry. It is unfathomable to me why the Americans putting parts on a car on the line in Detroit for $45 an hour cannot do it as well as Americans in Marysville, Ohio doing it for $20 an hour, but that seems to be the way it is these days.

Fool me once, shame on you; you fool me twice....

Just my .02, YMMV.

TR

Thanks for sharing, Sir. But this is exactly why we will never see you again. It is shameful. Ford has nobody to blame but Ford. The dealer has to share blame too. Since you didn't buy your vehicle from that dealer you went on the shelf. That is common practice today. What they don't understand is they missed a golden oppertunity to try and win you back. Dealerships survive on the revenue generated from the service department. They are ones who pay the dealership's bills. That department missed a chance to earn you business too!

We did it to ourselves. We should all be buying American-right? The Japanese and the Europeans are beating our pants off in innovation, reliability, dependability and service.

We have to rethink the way we do business because we are not winning too many hearts and minds. The American auto industry is at stake.


I wonder how much worse will it get before we get it as an industry?

[cold1]

Well since we are sharing.

I like Fords, I have driven them as company vehicles since 94. Ford dealerships and service departments can kiss my dogs A$$.

My wife (gf at the time) bought a brand new 04 explorer Eddie Baurer edition. She put a healthy chunk down on it and finaced the rest. This was done at the big dealership in Durham, NC. 2 months later the back windows stop going down, service department replaces the motors. All work for 2 months same thing happens. Motors replaced again.

We get married she moves down to Chatham county with me. Windows screw up again. Take it to the local dealership in Siler. I tell them what has happened in the past. They look at it, all day long, and tell me that there was some "goo" in the tracks causing the windows to stick. 2 weeks later we are back same problem. They change the motors and they work for 2 months and we are back again. I explain that there is no way 6 motors could go bad consecutively. That there had to be another problem. I am assured that they will take care of it. I return to pick up the car the next day and the when the windows go down there is this LOUD Pop. The kind that you feel sitting in the drivers set. Every time that you open the rear driver side door you get a different pop. I get the service manager and he figures out that his guy put in the wrong motor in that door. I told him mistakes happen and that they needed to fix it, and also I needed a loaner car for my wife to drive.

The co owner of the place comes out and tells me that he does not provide loaners to people who do not buy cars from him. This is the third time I have brought it here for the same problem, never asked for a loaner before, your guy screwed it up I need a loaner. Long argument short I did not get the loaner I called him everything but a child of God, and took the car to another dealership. They kept changing the motors out until the warranty went out now they want $750 to change them out again.

My wife took the car to a local mechanic in Lee county. She went there at 8 am, they took her on to work. By Noon the car was at her work the switches and wiring harness for the switch had been changed out.

The Bill was $85. Guess who gets my business and who gets trashed every chance I get.

[The Reaper]

Okay, you got me started now.

Non-Ford stories.

1986 Porsche 944 Turbo. Subject to intermittently not restarting with hot restarts. Run the engine up to temp, shut it off, and the engine will not restart. At that point, you have two choices. Wait for an hour or two till it cools off, at which point, it starts fine, or have your ODA push start the Porsche after PT. Good PT for the team, but since I am always in the driver's seat, not cool. So much for the vaunted German ubercar engineering.

Fayetteville Porsche dealer replaces fuel pump, lines, electronics, no joy. Back for repair five times. Could not replicate (basically, I do not think they were warming it up adequately). I accuse them of being "parts swappers". They give up, and tell me that I should "only bring it back the next time it is not starting". Obviously, unless I drive around with a roll-back wrecker in my pocket, that will be difficult.

I take to parking it on hills to assist with solo starting. Months later, I am reading an article in a Porsche magazine, and in the Tech section, I find that other people have the same issue. It is a check valve in the fuel system located in the tank. I roll the Porsche down hill to start it, take the car to the dealer, and ask them if they replaced the check valve. "No, that could not be the source of the problem," they tell me. I get the service manager, AKA, "King of the Parts Swappers" to humor me and replace the 39 cent part. I pick the vehicle up and it starts flawlessly the remainder of the years I own it.

Brand new 1995 Dodge Ram 2500 4x4 extended-cab long bed with the V-10 and five speed.

Picked up the truck in Georgia, drive it back to NC. New car smell, no problems.

Within a week, I am noticing a whirring when the clutch pedal is depressed, having owned a Triumph, I am pretty good at diagnosing manual transmission problems, so I go to the local dealer in Sanford, NC and tell them that the throw-out bearing sounds like it is going bad after less than 1,000 miles.

They tell me that everything is up to specs and there is nothing to worry about.

I am getting sticky shifting and the whirring sound is getting worse. They tell me that it MIGHT be going bad, keep driving it. I ask what do I do with it, they say, "Keep driving it till it breaks". Two hundred miles later, I call back and tell them to pick it up in the parking lot of the local Wal-Mart, and to order a new pressure plate and flywheel to go with the throw-out bearing. They ask why, and I explain to them that the ball bearings from the throw-out bearing make a bad impression when they fly out and trapped between the clutch and pressure plates. They have parts delays for a week or so, and they finally fix it after I call the service manager three times. Three years later, I hear the noise starting again, and I take it to the Dodge dealer in Brandon, FL. He pulls the inspection plate and tells me that I should not put non-MOPAR parts in my truck. I tell him that the only time the bell-housing has ever been cracked was by my hometown Dodge dealer. Go figure.

The Dodge Ram is starting to occasionally spark knock heavily after hot restarts. Go to a gas station with the truck warmed up, shut it off for a few minutes, restart it and it sounds like a diesel rattling. Shut it off and restart, it runs fine. Take it in six times to the local dealer in Brandon. "Could not replicate", "Could not replicate", "Could not replicate". They swap parts to no avail. Finally, when I pick it up for the 7th time, and start to drive off, it does it. I pull back in and call the service manager over. He has a tech come over and get the diagnostic box. He hooks it up and we take it out for a test drive with him watching the meter. We rattle along like a fresh spray paint can in the hands of a tagger, and after a couple of miles, he tells me to bring it back to the shop. He says that he has never heard a gas engine sound like that. We pull up in front of the service manager, who asks the tech what the deal is. Tech says, and I quote, "Diagnostic test set says that it is running fine." Service manager shuts the truck off and restarts it, and it does not knock. He tells me, "Sounds like it is running fine now to me". He refuses to work on it any more. We get the regional service manager involved, and he says, well the truck is nearing the end of the warranty, and Chrysler has done all that we are prepared to do to fix it. I still own the truck, and it still does it occasionally.

Wipe out a large deer in the same truck (almost totalled) and it goes in to the only dealer that USAA recommended with an opening on the body shop schedule to repair it. Six weeks later, I get the truck back and the ABS light is on. I take it back to the same shop three times for the trouble light, finally, they farm it out to the Fayetteville Dodge dealer across the street for diagnosis. They say that I have a faulty ABS module, and that it will be about $600 to repair, could be more if other components are bad. I tell them that it was working fine before the accident, but the adjuster denies the repair saying there is no evidence (beyond my word for it) that the condition was not pre-existing. The body shop dealer is no help. Finally, in desperation, I take it to my neighborhood shade tree mechanic, who calls me back an hour after I dropped it off. "You can come get your truck". I asked him how he found a deal on an ABS box and got it installed so quickly. He replies, "there wasn't anything wrong with the ABS, the ground cable on the battery was not reconnected properly when they reinstalled it." I swear to God. Called the USAA adjuster back, told him the story, faxed him the bill for an hour of labor from my local wrench, and advised him to reconsider whether the Hendricks body shop or local Dodge dealer should be allowed to handle sharp objects like pens, much less work on cars.

I would tell a few more on the Dodge Intrepid we owned, but that would take more time than I have to type today.

TR

[The Reaper]

Well, we were cluttering up a good thread from Z06 on car pricing, so I started this tread for the dealership horror stories.

TR

[zuluzerosix]

Originally Posted by kgoerz

My wifes truck which wasn't even a year old blew its engine. Ford said the warranty didn't cover it since she was using the Truck for her Horshoeing Business. She had the placards on the side of the truck when she brought it in. They would of never known otherwise. So now I am paying for a new Truck that we don't even have. We had to just leave it at the dealership. That was my fifth and last vehicle I will ever buy from ford.
If your a volunteer fireman make sure you take your lights out if you are going to use the warranty. That will void your warranty also. What a bunch of crooks. This was Lafeyette Ford in Fayetteville that did this.

This is pure BS the part of the dealer. When the F&I manager registered the warranty with Ford, all they add to do was check the box that said commercial use. The added surchage to the dealer's cost is only $250.

[rubberneck]

I have an experience that mirrors the Reapers but it was with a Nissan dealer not Ford. Bought my wife a brand new Quest that had to be taken back to Nissan 6 times in the first year for 6 different issues. The last of the six required towing and the dealers response was to call AAA instead of sending a flatbed to pick it up themselves. I will never consider a Nissan after the way the car performed and the total lack of empathy from the dealer, and even worse Nissan USA whom I wrote on at least two occasions to voice my displeasure.

The Honda dealership that I bought my last two cars from are great. Bright, clean showrooms and waiting areas, free high speed internet access, complimentary soft drinks and popcorn, and loaner cars for everything that will take more than 1 hour. I just bought a Subaru for the wife and they have bent over backwards to ensure it was a pleasant experience.

How hard is it to treat you customers right. I just don't get some of these car dealers.

[4StringSlinger]

Unfortunately, me experiences with the Big 3 mirror many of yours.

I have owned many domestics, mainly trucks and SUV's, Ford, Chevy, and Jeep. My first 'new' truck was a '99 Ford Ranger. By '01, it had gone through an 02 sensor, three fuel pumps, a transmission, and finally threw a rod...even though I had maintained it religiously. No love from Ford. I'll never own another. Had to sell it for scrap and roll the debt into a used Jeep. At the time I worked as a tech at the Jeep store, so I could massage the numbers enough to not get raped too bad...rape is still rape though. The upside was I could fix it when it broke, parts were cost for me.

In 2003, I bought a brand-new Toyota Tacoma, x-cab, V6, TRD 4x4. 5 1/2 years later, never a trip to the dealer, tough as nails, no rattles or squeaks, everything a light truck should be. Never left me stranded, ever. Bought the wife a Matrix in '03, same thing...both cars are boringly reliable. We are Toyota customers for life. My pops bought a 4-runner brand new in '88...sold it last year with 280k on the clock. In that time, he rebuilt the trans once, and replaced the AC compressor, replaced the timing chain.

I would love nothing more than to be able to walk into a Chevy, Ford, Dodge dealer and feel comfortable knowing that I am buying a quality truck that will last 10+ years, but I have been burned too many times. At least the 70's era GM trucks I had were fairly reliable...or at least cheap to fix.

I look forward to a day when I can buy domestic again, and be proud that americans build great vehicles. I hope it's not a pipe dream.

[Red Flag 1]

A good Ford story.

Bought a 1999 Expedition new in C'ville,Va . At 60,000 miles a snap ring in the tranny launched its self and bagged the transmission; 10,000 miles out of warranty. Had it towed back to the dealer in Charlottesville, Va. The dealership, Battlefield Ford, lobbied Ford on my behalf and I got a new transmission under warranty after paying a $450.00 deductable. Ford also extended the warranty on engine and drivetrain to 100,00 miles. Used this @ 75,000 for head gasket replacement without question, $50.00 deductable.


Bought a new 2007 F-150 that has about 17,000 now. No problems.

Guess I'm lucky.

My Hondas have been more trouble, but that is another story.

RF 1

[AngelsSix]

I owned two Ford's. One was a Probe, one an Explorer. I bought the Explorer used at a dealer in VA (not a dealer) and the original warrantee was valid and transferred. I had the transmission fail at 58,000 miles. Ford made me pay $1,500.00 to rebuild the tranny. My ex husband stopped making payments and had the damn thing repo'd a short time later. Figures.
The Probe I bought used as well from one of those dealers in VA that charge an arm and a leg in finance charges. I had no choice at the time, but the car itself was an issue from day one. I must have replaced every major exhaust component in the car. Two sets of O2 sensors, a catalytic converter, you name it. I even changed out components under the hood to see if it would help. I constantly had a check engine light. I spent thousands on that car trying to get rid of that damn light. I finally got rid of it and bought a Dodge Durango. Best truck I ever owed. I traded that for a Jeep Cherokee Laredo when the mileage went out of warranty on the Dodge. I will probably go to the Toyota dealer and look for a 4 Runner or a Pathfinder next.

[frostfire]

Originally Posted by The Reaper

.....Now bear in mind that an O2 sensor is a plug, much like a spark plug, that screws into the exhaust pipe. It has one wire connected to it. Given one in hand and access to the underside of the car, and the proper wrench, it would take a monkey maybe ten minutes to replace one.

Originally Posted by The Reaper

.....Fayetteville Porsche dealer replaces fuel pump, lines, electronics, no joy. Back for repair five times. Could not replicate (basically, I do not think they were warming it up adequately). I accuse them of being "parts swappers"..... .....I get the service manager, AKA, "King of the Parts Swappers" to humor me and replace the 39 cent part. I pick the vehicle up and it starts flawlessly the remainder of the years I own it.

.....Finally, in desperation, I take it to my neighborhood shade tree mechanic, who calls me back an hour after I dropped it off. "You can come get your truck". I asked him how he found a deal on an ABS box and got it installed so quickly. He replies, "there wasn't anything wrong with the ABS, the ground cable on the battery was not reconnected properly when they reinstalled it."

hmmmm, reminds me of my 2nd car, a Corolla when the speedometer stopped working. Took it to the dealer, they said something was wrong with the speed sensor box. They replaced it, didn't fix the problem, so they replaced the entire dashboard display set-up. $700+. This, combined with other bad experience with a dealer mechanic lead me to believe the following:

Whether it's out of incompetence, or inconvience, or profit-chasing, or who-knows-what, dealer mechanics = part swapper. Here I am thinking that a (competent) mechanic should be one who does not go straight to replacing anything and everything, but actually fixes actual problem, even going to some ingineous Mcgyver solution that saves $$$. I will never, ever use a dealer mechanics again. Granted this is a generalization on my part and there are many crooks at repair shop also ( I'll never use my local Firestone), but I've observed enough from others experience and my own to notice the trend.

This past month, I accompanied a friend who got nail in his Corvette tire. The dealership couldn't/wouldn't even fix it and fulfill the warranty. Instead, they referred us to several other tire repair shops in the area. Since they were all backed up, at the end of the day, a back-woods mechanic in a hilbilly looking shop fixed the tire.

FWIW, now I sincerely believe the secret to many happy years with a car is to be willing to learn as much as possible about it (now I replace oil, filter etc. all the way to break system on my own ), and know at least one competent and honest mechanic.

[zuluzerosix]

Didn't think we needed a new thread on this, I just wanted to give you guys a heads up.

The Kelly Blue Book used to change it's value estimates every quarter. We just got a heads up they will be doing it on a weekly basis now.

I am referring specifically to Karpower, the KBB program that dealers use to get the actual (dealers dont use KBB.com) trade value.

I hope this makes sense. But you may be seeing the value of your vehicle change weekly if you are car shopping...

Just a heads up.

http://www.karpower.com/Marketing/index.aspx

This is the website that dealers use. It is very expensive to get a log on.

Happy New Year to everyone.

[zuluzerosix]

Hello folks, I hope everyone is doing well on this fine Saturday morning. I thought I would stop in and give you all an insider's update about about the car biz. This is purely from my perspective, so take this with a grain of salt.

Lending is starting to loosen up. But Credit Union financing is still the way to go. Big banks and finance companies rates are still very high. Citibank, Wachovia, Bank of America, Capital One Auto Finance to name a few are lending, but they are mostly at the beginning of the month. They are blowing through their allocated funds really fast, cherry picking the top tier credit customers only.

The Captive Lenders such as GMAC and Ford Motor Credit are offering suvenned rates right now, 0% for 72 months (which is a great deal-remember after 6 payments you can pay off the loan at any time with no penalty), but this is on select vehicles-usually the ones that need to sell the quickest.

Rebates are pretty fat right now-but do the math, if you have really good credit, sometimes it saves money to take the fat rebate and finance at your credit union instead of take no rebate and 0 % apr.

You need a finance calculator to do that, I can help with that send me a PM.


GMAC is now funding Chrysler loans-that is an interesting development.

The Kelly Blue Book values are actually going up! It changes every week now so stay away from the Blue Book they sell in the stores and always book your car online at http://www.kbb.com/

Our Ford dealership is doing well, we have actually had to hire another sales person. We have a different business model than most dealships, I think. Everything new except Hybrids is $250 over invoice plus rebates, and used cars have a $500 mark up. So we are blowing through alot of inventory.

Toyota just posted a 7 Billion dollar loss. This is devastating for the Japanese. GM and Ford have yet to post any profits and are still blowing through cash like a hot knife through butter. Ford has yet to take any 'Bailout Money," I hope we can stay the course. We are getting alot of good press about our improving quality and upcomming new product like the 2010 Fusion Hybrid and new Taurus. But I think we still have a way to go, and it will take years to win back consumers we have lost-if we even can.

Here are the average credit union rates right now, based on Tier 1 (Stellar Credit)

5.99% at 60 months.... West Coast
6.25% at 72 months.... East Coast
6.19% at 60 months.....Southwest
6.25% at 72 months.....Southwest

No number available to me for the Midwest. These numbers came from my Credit Union Direct Lending (CUDL) representative. The CUDL software allows me to submit application to credit unions.

Here are National rates for big lenders, these are top tier 0 and tier 1 rates. Based on 60 months.. Score 700+

Wachovia 7.59%
BOA 7.95%
Capital One 7.89%
Citi 7.99%
WaMu 7.25%

Here are the overnite averages as reported by bankrate.com

Auto Overnight Averages

Product Rate +/- Last week
48 Mo Used Car 7.91% 7.92%
48 Mo New Car 7.43% 7.44%
36 Mo Used Car 7.83% 7.83%
36 Mo New Car 7.17% 7.36%

So as you can see rates are a bit high, when you can get it in the 5% range at some credit unions.

Anyway, just thought I'd share. Hope I didn't wast anybody's time. Remember, if anyone needs info on any new Ford, Lincoln or Mercury product,
please send me a PM, I am here for you.