Allen Elishewitz - SABOTEUR - framelock flipper

[PiterM]

Hi! Just wanted to share my latest pictures of one of Allen's strongest designs - Saboteur.

Barbwire, explosives, sentry removal, silent war behind enemy lines... that's what I see when I grab this one.

Oh, whatever, it's just sharp, strong and sits supersecurely in hand.

[sal]

Allen's a gret designer and maker. I'm sure the knife will serve you well.

sal

[MVP]

I am not opposed to paying for quality, and have carried and used several knives costing more than $250 but "starting at $650" seems way beyond reason. I guess though this has a jewelry effect, something like the Texas "Barbeque Gun".

MVP

[DJ Urbanovsky]

It may seem pricey, but you're getting your money's worth. And for the labor, fit, finish, and function you're getting out of Alan, that price is a bargain. Building a folder the way Alan does and using the materials that he does is an extremely time intensive and expensive endeavor. His knives are superlative. And remember, we're talking about a custom, handmade knife here, made by one guy that you can actually call on the phone and talk with.

Originally Posted by MVP

I am not opposed to paying for quality, and have carried and used several knives costing more than $250 but "starting at $650" seems way beyond reason. I guess though this has a jewelry effect, something like the Texas "Barbeque Gun".

MVP

[Barbarian]

I would agree. The time and attention to detail that goes into Elishewitz' folders... the NASA engineering level of precision... They are a good investment. To a knife enthusiast, the difference between a knife such as one of these, and even a high end production folder is like daylight and dark. It's similar to the way a custom, hand-built long range rifle compares to a stock Rem 700 or a Win 70. To a discerning shooter, there is little comparison.

The custom folder market is definitely a niche market, and $650 folders are not for everyone, to be sure, but it is one those cases where the price is directly proportional to the quality.

[MVP]

Ok, I appreciate the quality but this is still a "production" knife, not a one off. Looks to me like most of the work is done by machines with handfitting of the parts. I would be interested to know how many hours (machine and hand time) are required per unit to estimate the hourly rate.

Those who know me personnally are very aware I do not scrimp on my guns and am not afraid to pay for best quality. Just don't see the price on these knives. My 0.02...

MVP

[DJ Urbanovsky]

1) That is not a production knife. It's handmade. A great deal of what knifemakers do these days is done with the aid of machines.

2) Even if a CNC machine is used, it's not a "pull the lever, turn the crank, and go to the bar with the machine poops out knives" situation. There is art and science involved.

3) Remember material (ahem, a gold medallion for your logo) and consumable costs, along with wear and tear on machines and tooling. If that spindle is turning, that machine is wearing. Cutters break. Belts don't last very long grinding Ti and hardened steel. Ti isn't cheap. Neither are any of the modern tech steels.

Let me ask you this: What is your time worth? You have to pay the bills. Keep the power on. Buy dog biscuits. Health insurance. Upgrade your machines and tooling. Constantly educate yourself on materials, processes, and the state of the industry. And knifemakers don't have an old timers day. This gig causes a lot of stress and wear and tear on the body. What does a knifemaker do when/if he's no longer capable of making knives? What if you have a family that you're responsible for? Do you have a mortgage? Rent on a shop? A car payment? What if you're injured and you can't work for a week? What about a month? And then there are the taxes...

Let's break the cost of that $650 knife down: Just in raw materials and shipping to get them to you alone, you're looking at around $100. So we're down to $550. Probably another $50 for power, wear on tooling and machines, consumables, etc. We're down to $500. That's our revenue on this knife. Now, let's take 23% off the top of that in taxes that we'll pay on that revenue. That leaves us with $385. If I were to build such a knife, once I had my process down for a model with those particular features, it would probably take me about three solid days. So 16-24 hours if nothing went wrong. So let's split the difference and call it 20 hours per knife. If you work a regular 40 hour work week, that's two knives a week. Less than $20 an hour. A kid fresh out of college running a CNC machine will make more than that if he's good. Allen isn't some young buck who's still wet behind the ears, he's been making knives a long time. Don't you think he deserves to get paid commensurate with his level of skill and experience? What about the rest of us who have put the time in developing our skills? Just some things to consider. And that's not even getting into all of the processes involved in building such a knife.

I'm not saying any of this to start a pissing match with you or to be a dick, I'm saying it to try an give you a better understanding of everything that goes into making a knife like this. Your perception of value is what it is. Everybody is different, and everybody has their own ideas about it. You're going to feel how you feel about the price of any given object, just like the rest of us. Not everybody wants or needs to carry a $650 knife. But some of us do.

Originally Posted by MVP

Ok, I appreciate the quality but this is still a "production" knife, not a one off. Looks to me like most of the work is done by machines with handfitting of the parts. I would be interested to know how many hours (machine and hand time) are required per unit to estimate the hourly rate.

Those who know me personnally are very aware I do not scrimp on my guns and am not afraid to pay for best quality. Just don't see the price on these knives. My 0.02...

MVP

[MVP]

DJ,

PM inbound

[MR2]

Good point DJ.

For those looking for more value, I think I saw a Horror Freight flyer around here somewhere...

Just joshing ya MVP.

[cant hardly]

.

[MVP]

Remember the stero battles of the 1980's. Guys were always buying the latest versions with more bells and lights.

Life was better in the 1980's, if you had the ring, the knife, and the watch you were SF. Now you need a piece of designer jewelry er... knife

MVP

[MVP]

After thinking this over I realized there were 4 things in those days needed to be real SF: the ring, the knife, the watch, and a divorce.

M.

[DJ Urbanovsky]

Wasn't there some kind of sports car in there as well?

Originally Posted by MVP

After thinking this over I realized there were 4 things in those days needed to be real SF: the ring, the knife, the watch, and a divorce.

M.

[Angry Mike]

the $2K plus 1911!