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[flyboy1]

This guy is in for a long weekend.
How not to practice target acquisition

any-one hear anything else on this?

[Team Sergeant]

Originally Posted by flyboy1

This guy is in for a long weekend.
How not to practice target acquisition

any-one hear anything else on this?

How much does pilot training cost?

What's amusing is the fact the they're saying "the gun went off!"

Inorder to hit the school the plane has to be headed in the direction of the target, so saying the "gun just went off" doesn't cut it. This guy will be promoted to Col and lead the AF soon I'm sure.

[flyboy1]

Originally Posted by Team Sergeant

How much does pilot training cost?

What's amusing is the fact the they're saying "the gun went off!"

In order to hit the school the plane has to be headed in the direction of the target, so saying the "gun just went off" doesn't cut it. This guy will be promoted to Col and lead the AF soon I'm sure.

It was about 1.5 Million to educate this guy through his advanced school.

It is about a year and a half worth of training:
Screening
Primary
Advanced.
Total of 239 hours, give or take a few.

"the gun went off" is going to be a very poor defense for him. He needs a better Counselor or a crew chief stating/confessing that he rigged his plane.

[Huey14]

If he's 7k up, then he must have had the aircraft in a fairly steep dive to have the rounds hit the school. Anyone know what the range of the Vulcan is? I wonder what the radar tapes say.

Would an investigation into this be made public at all? I would love to read it when it's finished.

[QRQ 30]

I think I'll wait and let the USAF investigate the cause. It could well have been an equipment malfunction. If he was at 7000 AGL and at night and the entire burst hit the school there are many unanswered questions. The humor is lost if we transpose the incident by about 10K miles.

[1026]

Originally Posted by Team Sergeant

What's amusing is the fact the they're saying "the gun went off!"

Your typical media assclown is a pagan animist. Think of all the BS leading up to Brady, the recently expired AWB, and the frivolous lawsuits against gun companies. Most stories involving these topics involved guns which fired of their own accord. It's not the man, it's the tool.

This type of thing is fairly common; you just don't hear about it because the impact area is usually out in BFE. During workups for Desert Storm, an A-6E pounded a campsite in California.

[The Reaper]

Originally Posted by 1026

Your typical media assclown is a pagan animist. Think of all the BS leading up to Brady, the recently expired AWB, and the frivolous lawsuits against gun companies. Most stories involving these topics involved guns which fired of their own accord. It's not the man, it's the tool.

This type of thing is fairly common; you just don't hear about it because the impact area is usually out in BFE. During workups for Desert Storm, an A-6E pounded a campsite in California.

Concur completely.

We are a society which largely denies personal responsibility and embraces victimization.

I have been amazed at the stories we get from SF students who would have probably been selected had they just ponied up and admitted what they did honestly and succinctly, without seeking to place blame elsewhere.

TR

[QRQ 30]

1026: I don't find where the press reported that "The gun went off" or made any judgement at all.

"The National Guard takes this situation very seriously," said Lt. Col. Roberta Niedt, a spokeswoman for the state Department of Military and Veterans Affairs. "The safety of our people and the surrounding communities are our foremost concern."

The jet that fired the rounds was assigned to the 113th Wing of the District of Columbia Air National Guard, based at Andrews Air Force Base in Maryland. The plane returned there after firing the shots, Webster said.

He would not identify the pilot or detail possible disciplinary measures.

Thank god the military investigates before blaming. I feel the press reported the incident responsibly, making no conclusions. It is amazing how the people with the least information sometimes make the quickest determinations.

Based upon the altitude, acft speed and time of night I believe this was an "accidental discharge" rather than simply missing a target. Admiting that most unintentional firings are because of operator's head space, there could, however, be another reason.

[Bill Harsey]

Originally Posted by 1026

Your typical media assclown is a pagan animist. Think of all the BS leading up to Brady, the recently expired AWB, and the frivolous lawsuits against gun companies. Most stories involving these topics involved guns which fired of their own accord. It's not the man, it's the tool.

This type of thing is fairly common; you just don't hear about it because the impact area is usually out in BFE. During workups for Desert Storm, an A-6E pounded a campsite in California.

Pagan animist? Now I have homework to do.

Anyone check to see if the pilot had gone to school there?

Ok, Did some homework, found the term "pagan animist" claimed by one who is a "shaman and FTM transgendered intersexual activist and minister." I'm starting to get a picture...

[Team Sergeant]

Originally Posted by QRQ 30

1026: I don't find where the press reported that "The gun went off" or made any judgement at all.

"He inadvertently discharged the weapon. He was not in the act of aiming the gun at anything," said Col. Brian Webster, commander of the 177th Fighter Wing of the New Jersey Air National Guard, of the incident. "We do not know exactly why the gun fired."

"Colonel Webster said the incident yesterday was under investigation by the Pentagon and state officials. "We have no idea why the gun went off," he said. "This is a very unusual and unique thing." He said the range at Warren Grove had been open for more than 40 years and that this was the first time bullets fired from the air had struck off the range. It was unclear who reported the incident to military officials."



I knew I read that somewhere.....
http://www.nytimes.com/2004/11/05/ny.../05strafe.html


We shall see.

The angle of the bullets will tell the story.

The USAF killed more soldiers (Americans, Brits etc) then the entire Iraq military before, during and after Desert Storm.

TS

(BTW, I are a graduate of the AF TACP school.)

[Bill Harsey]

Isn't the exact location of the aircraft in the sky when bullets fired an important factor in using bullet angle to judge what happened?

Bullets could come in at an angle because they traveled a long distance and were on the end of the trajectory arc or the airplane could have been pointed straight at the target when firing.

[QRQ 30]

I agree TS. There is no way a shot group that tight could have occured from 7K unless the acft was pointed directly at it. OTOH it is possible that he was in a dive in preparation of strafing the target which was three miles away.

I don't see the quote you cited in the posted URL. Perhaps it is in another article from a different reporter. What I see is:

"The pilot of the single-seat jet was supposed to fire at a ground target on the firing range three and half miles from the school, said Col. Brian Webster, commander of the 177th Fighter Wing of the New Jersey Air National Guard (search), which is responsible for the range. He did not know what led to the school getting shot up.

As is the case with most unintentional discharges it is likely "Operator's Headspace". At this time I don't klnow if any determoinations or accusations have been made by the responsible agencies.

I guess that my original post was that I detected nothing improper in the way the incident was reported.

[QRQ 30]

Originally Posted by Bill Harsey

Isn't the exact location of the aircraft in the sky when bullets fired an important factor in using bullet angle to judge what happened?

Bullets could come in at an angle because they traveled a long distance and were on the end of the trajectory arc or the airplane could have been pointed straight at the target when firing.

Sho 'nuff. I am still inclined to think he was losing altitude in preparation for a straffing run. I have had support from fast movers firing 20 mm "PD" rounds from Vulcans. I can attest that they were closer to 100 feet and were an awsome sight.

[Team Sergeant]

Originally Posted by QRQ 30

I don't see the quote you cited in the posted URL. Perhaps it is in another article from a different reporter. What I see is:

Terry,

I read about 10 reports on the shooting, I don't remember where I quoted that one from, my point was it came from the horses mouth, Col Webster. I think I would have not made silly statements and waited for the investigation to finish. And if I were the boy/girl behind the trigger, I'd admit to my mistake if said boy or girl actually pulled the trigger.... That's my beef with the AF pilot training, deny everything....

[QRQ 30]

TS: Maybe he was turning the page in the TM and brushed the button.