Long range rifle advice request.

[TF Kilo]

I am in the market for a new rifle.

Primary purpose: Hunting.
Secondary purpose: Long range marksmanship training/competition.

I have scoured the board, and this forum in particular, for .338 and Lapua... vague references at best.

I know TR's take, but I have another thing to throw into the mix.

I'm looking at purchasing something in .338 Lapua. Everything I have heard from professionals across the board is positive about this caliber.

It also meets the generalized requirement of 2K+ Ft/Lb of force... out past 400m. The general rule of thumb for hunting in alaska is that 2k kills anything here. I tend to agree.

I have 3 rifles currently under scrutiny for possible incorporation into the family armory:

Remington M24A3

Armalite AR-30

McMillan TAC-338

I don't even know if the M24A3 is available for civilian purchase, obviously it would be without the can... although that would be uber-sexy, it's not something I need.

The Armalite has had good accuracy reviews from what I have read, although most of the reviews circle around the .300 WM variant. I would venture that it probably holds the same accuracy in the .338 variant.

And of course, the McMillan is probably unarguably the top dog in the contest.

The M24 weighs in scoped and loaded at 8.2 lbs with the Accuracy International stock system, or 7.2 Lbs with a H&S Precision stock. Scope model with the military issued system is a Leupold Mark 4 M1LR/T, 8.5-25X50mm, and I would be using the same. No muzzle brake, as it's designed for use with a supressor as issued.

The AR-30 weighs in at 12 lbs, no scope. No stock variant options. Muzzle brake is a miniature version of the brake system used on the AR-50.

The TAC-338 weighs in at a hair under 12 lbs, without a scope. McMillan stock, without side fold option. Elite Iron muzzle brake, removable for whatever you want, and McMillan will thread the barrel however you choose if you have another choice.

I know the ballistics of the round from my research, and basically I am tossing this out there to see what individual experience the board has with any or all of these different rifles.

Price isn't much of an option, because I'm willing to pay what's required for quality.

Thanks for your time.

[Tuukka]

I would suggest you to take a good look at the Sako TRG-42. Excellent quality, accuracy and reliability out of the box.

[longrange1947]

Agree with Tuukka - Go Sako TRG-42. The M24A3 is not perfected yet and not for general sale, unless a change has occured recently that I am not aware of. I have fired the SAKO and really liked it. If price is not a consideration then go with the S&B scope as well. I can guarrantee you that you will not be disappointed. That combo will out shoot all but the very top world class shooters and the price is very good. If you need better then you need a custom built and not out of the box. There are some of those out there as well, but the price will kill you.

I am glad to see that the AI is not in the running.

[TF Kilo]

How does that Sako perform side by side with the other two on my original list, if you've had a chance to do any comparison either by dedicated range time, or previous experiences?

Judging by what prices I have seen on various sites across the net, the Sako is also mid-range compared between the AR-30 and the McMillan. Easier on the wallet with high quality perks my interest...

What's the availability of parts like, if it does happen to break?

Weight isn't quite as much of a concern, simply because I know that if I could "hold hard" with a gimmicked up SAW, I sure as heck could engage a 300 yard animal with a 15 or so pound rifle. It just takes practice and dry fire exercise to be able to do it.

Don't take that as though I want to carry more than necessary. The mission's putting dinner on the table, not conducting a live fire raid...

[TF Kilo]

BTW, I was trying to "stay american" with the rifles, hence no AI, plus I have heard whisperings of bad things about them.

What makes an AI "not great"?

[Gene Econ]

I am in the market for a new rifle. Primary purpose: Hunting.
Secondary purpose: Long range marksmanship training/competition.
I have scoured the board, and this forum in particular, for .338 and Lapua... vague references at best.

Hunting I can see it. Long Range competition generally means NRA Long Range and they won't allow calibers over .30. I am sure there are big bore competitions but if so, they don't hit the radar screen.

I'm looking at purchasing something in .338 Lapua. Everything I have heard from professionals across the board is positive about this caliber.

I just estimated about $1.25 per shot if you buy your components in bulk to get discounts, and you handload. This includes the cost of a $500.00 barrel that will be shot out at 1500 rounds maximum.

It's funny that your biggest component cost is the bullet followed by barrel wear! Sierra's 2007 Drop Ship prices show the 250 Match King to cost $208.00 for 500 bullets. That comes to forty cents per bullet and if you live in Alaska you must order $2,000.00 worth of bullets to qualify for their drop ship program. Next is barrel wear that I estimate to be $.30 per shot given the very liberal statement that a .338 Lapua Magnum barrel of top quality will last 1500 rounds before accuracy suffers at ranges past 600 yards. Next is brass that will cost you over one dollar per piece and will last maybe four firings -- $.25 per shot. 100 grains of powder per shot comes to about the same -- $.25 per shot. Primers will be about $.03 per shot.

All in all look at about $1.25 per shot and most matches consist of unlimited sighters and three strings of twenty for record. Look at around $90.00 for ammo per match.

It also meets the generalized requirement of 2K+ Ft/Lb of force... out past 400m. The general rule of thumb for hunting in alaska is that 2k kills anything here. I tend to agree.

I certainly won't argue with that works. I haven't hunted for years but I do find it strange that requirements would be measured in foot pounds of energy as opposed to using the right bullet, at the right speed, at the right ranges -- and holding what ever kill zone is required for that specific game.

I have 3 rifles currently under scrutiny for possible incorporation into the family armory: Remington M24A3 Armalite AR-30 McMillan TAC-338.

I defer to Rick for this as he can shoot these rifles without having to buy them or pay for the ammo. I do advise you to not waste your money on an Armalite product. I also think that McMillan tacks on a good 30% for their name. Remington is Remington -- take the good with the bad.

One thing I will advise is this. If you intend on firing sixty plus rounds in a few hours -- that .338 is going to weigh a good 16 - 20 pounds and have a barrel that is about 30 inches long. Even if you have a comp on the rifle, after about thirty rounds fired in competition you will get a lesson on the effects of recoil on marksmanship skills and the effects of overpressure on your physiology.

Great cartridge for huting where you shoot one or two rounds in a day. Exceptionally accurate cartridge for long range precision. Deadly on the shooter and his bank account.

Gene

[Sinister]

I agree with Rick and Gene, however note that NRA long range highpower competition does NOT allow a muzzle brake, so if you're going to shoot a .338 Lapua you're going to need somehting like a heavy 30-inch barrel and a good shooting coat with a sissy pad for your shoulder.

A 300 Win Mag will probably meet your requirements. Like Gene says, most folks don't realize the hidden costs of owning a 338 Lapua (I got mine from a guy who said it was too expensive and was going back to a 308).

[Peregrino]

Gene - Good post. Kind of puts a realistic perspective on it. Personally, while I appreciate an accurate rifle, I've always felt competition and hunting rifles were built to meet diverging requirements. NOT that I accept lesser accuracy from a hunting rifle. I just don't want to shoot 80-100 rds through a hunting rifle, nor do I want to lug 12-15 lbs (or more) of target rifle around all day.

TF Kilo - I can't comment on the MCRT (McMillan) action and the Remington (as Gene pointed out) is "just" a Remington. I have played with the AR-30 and, unless you know a good 'smith and want to throw lots of money at him, would not recommend it for your stated purposes. Two of my friends, both accomplished long range shooters, own them (and let me play ). Neither rifle performs to expectations. Nor would I want to hump one through the wilderness all day. It's certainly not the kind of rifle I would want for a snap shot at a grizzly at <30m. (Though the ME might make up for "a little bit" of shot placement error.) Sounds like Tuukka and LR1947 are giving some great "compromise" advice. I like Sakos too - and lots of custom gunsmiths are copying their extractor.

My .02 - Peregrino

[longrange1947]

As a note to Gene and Sinister's statements. When you stated long range comp I was assuming that you meant the extreme long range comps that reach out to 2000 meters. If you mean NRA high power then you will not be allowed to shoot the 338 LAPUA in those venues.

Cost, again I assumed you had investigated and know what you are getting into. If you are not reloading your own then you will have costs that will really cut you down. Take care in the MV and weight of the bullets you fire. 250 gr will give you a longer life then the 300 gr as long as you do not try to "laser" the round at max velocity. If you do that then you will burn the barrel before you even find the best bullet, powder, MV combo. Add to that the round for comps is one thing and another round is needed if you are hunting with that sucker.

And yes, my ammo is free and I get to play, Sinister and Gene used to get to play for free.

[TF Kilo]

Part of the fun of shooting is loading your own stuff. So yes, I will be reloading my own rounds.

Obviously, placement is paramount. You can kill a moose with a .22 LR if you're a damn good shot. The comment of force imparted on the target incorporates hydrostatic shock and general wound causing capability... ie DRT factor.
I have friends who are guides up here, and as a guide their weapons have to stop whatever they're guiding the hunt on, RIGHT THERE. They all think that I would have no issues with ANY game here with this caliber, regardless of projectile style. They also said whatever I hit, isn't going to be going anywhere.. which reduces the time spent tracking, as well as meat issues with adrenalyne, etc.

I'd probably be going with the Barnes X or XTR for hunting. Getting bullets to load is easy, .338 is .338 regardless of what casing is behind it. Sportsmans Warehouse in anchorage carries a very wide selection of reloading supplies and equipment. Place is about 1/2 the size of the Cabela's store in oklahoma.

As for close in snap shots, that's what my wife and her .454 lever gun, and the .454 super redhawk that would be on my hip are for.

I'd probably be humping this with the longgun system Kifaru has, so it'd be weight on the pack vs weight on my arms the whole time.

I appreciate all the input!!!

[Sinister]

The TRG-42 is one of the lightest .338 Lapua factory rifles in military service.

Off the shelf you could start with a Remington 700 in 338 Remington Ultra Mag.

If you're not afraid of reloading and you don't want to spend a ridiculous tab on the rifle, consider a .338 Edge.

The gunsmith starts out with a (Remington 700 in) 300 Remington Ultra Mag and removes the barrel. The 338 Edge is a 300 Rem Ultra Mag necked up to 338 (using the same bolt face). The resulting cartridge carries more powder than the .338 Lapua, and brass is about half the price per case. You can push a Sierra 250 grain Soft Point Game King between 2900 and 3200 fps -- a lot of thumping power.

There are a few long range hunting sites that specifically specialize in long range hunting (vice long range shooting).

Good base guns might be Remington 700s or maybe the CZ bolt rifle.

Good luck.

[HOLLiS]

TF, I can be way off base here. I tend to shy away from long shots while hunting. As the distance increase the probability of a missing or a non-killing hit becomes greater. I am in Oregon and our biggest game is the Roosevelt elk, up to 1000 pounds. I use a 338 Win mag or a 300 Rem Ultra mag. I also use in heavily wooded area a Marlin guide in 45/70 group II loads.

In rough areas a 600 M shot could mean several 1000 M of walking to get there. Dangerous game develops a really nasty mood when wounded or that great tasting meats goes off and dies. I sight my 338 and 300 R U M, at 600 M at milk jugs. I also want sub minute of accuracy from the bag.

I did bench shooting in the 70's and feel that a long range target rifle and hunting rifle has very separate purposes. I can see trying to make a rifle to do two things as a cost saver. My thoughts would be, buy/build two rifles. The thing that is really neat about firearms, they don't get jealous if you have more or use another more.

Again, I can be totally clueless, I don't hunt in your area. My biggest concerns here on hazards is two legged varmits that have firearms.

[Buffalobob]

I agree with Sinister, contact Shawn Carlock of Defensive Edge (he has a website of that name) in Idaho and he will build you a 338 Edge that will hold 0.5 MOA and rival the 338 Lapua in power. People have killed deer past 1400 yards with his rifles so I suspect that the accuracy will be more than you need. Smacking elk at 1K is child's play with such a gun.

Secondly, you have to wear ear protection if you are going to shoot with a brake. There are some devices like the Walker Game Ear and Peltor 7s that have hearing enhancement and loud noise shut off. Whether you would choose to hunt a grizzley bear with them on is up to you. If you get Shawn to build you a gun then he can build you a cap so you can take the brake off and put the cap on. His brakes are indexed so you can't just screw them on and off all day long without damaging the indexing.

As was said there are those of us who specialize in long range huniting and have guns that are amazingly accurate at long range but there is no way I would burn out my overbore magnum barrel shooting at paper. That is what the 308 is for.

[TF Kilo]

Although I'm not scared of reloading, I don't find the idea of a completely wildcat round appealing... It may be hard to find .338 Lapua ammo (they have it in stock at the sports store in anchorage, albeit low quantitys) but it'd be impossible to find any .338 Edge anywhere.

I might end up going the "easier" route and get the trg-42 in 300WM. Easier on the hardware, wallet, and also if my handloads get misplaced or something enroute to a hunting area, 300wm is easier to find than the .338LM...

I most definately would be using ear protection. I used Peltor's during my OEF time and appreciated the usefulness of being able to hear further with them, as well as the obvious hearing protection inherent in the system.


Hollis, as for long range shots on game animals: If I will place the bullet where it needs to be, the bullet can do the job, the velocity is high enough, and the caliber is more than enough.... why not?

[MRF54]

Here's a rifle to consider -
http://www.pgwdti.com/
If their website is still down just PM me for some pix.