Honor Killing, Tulay Goren

[SF-TX]

Another honor killing that has nothing to with Islam.

Missing girl was victim of honour killing, claims mother

By Lucy Ballinger
Last updated at 9:31 PM on 08th October 2009


'Honour killing' victim: Tulay Goren, 15, a Kurdish Turk from Woodford Green, East London

A mother broke a ten-year silence to claim her teenage daughter was murdered in an 'honour killing', a court heard yesterday.

Tulay Goren, 15, was allegedly killed by her father and buried in his garden after he learnt she was in a sexual relationship with a man twice her age.

Mehmet Goren, 49, with the help of at least one of his brothers, then allegedly dug up her remains in Woodford Green, East London, and disposed of them a week later. Her body has never been found.

Tulay's mother Hanim lived with the dark family secret and at first misled police because she was scared for her safety, said Jonathan Laidlaw, QC, prosecuting.

Tulay's father and his brothers Ali, 55, and Cuma Goren, 42, both of Walthamstow, East London, yesterday appeared at the Old Bailey accused of the schoolgirl's murder on January 7, 1999, and the attempted murder of her boyfriend Halil Unal, now 41. All three deny both charges.

Tulay was living with Mr Unal and had even tried to marry him, but was too young.

But after losing her virginity Tulay was seen as a 'valueless commodity', the court heard.

Her father and uncles, who came to Britain as political refugees from Turkey in the early 1990s, are alleged to have decided in a 'family council' to kill the pair.

Mr Unal was a Turkish Sunni Muslim but the Gorens were from the Alevi branch of the faith and an Alevi-Sunni relationship 'would not have been tolerated', jurors heard.

Mr Laidlaw said: 'Tulay's father was outraged and was filled with a sense that his reputation and that of his family had been destroyed.'

The court heard how Tulay was taken back to the family home the day before she went missing.

It is alleged Ali Goren told Mr Unal in a phone call: 'Mehmet will either return her to you or he will kill her. Who else would want her after what has happened?'

The next day, part-time fish and chip shop worker Mehmet sent his wife and their other children to his brother's house in Walthamstow.

He allegedly told his eight-year-old son to kiss Tulay goodbye as it would be 'the last time he would see her'.
Enlarge An artist's impression of (left to right) Ali, Cuma and Tulay's father Mehmet Goren during this week's trial

When his wife returned the next day, Mehmet said Tulay had run away.

Mrs Goren said he claimed a deep cut and scratch marks on his hand were from 'slipping on a banana skin'.

It is alleged Mehmet had worked on the garden, which resembled a 'ploughed field', for the first time since they moved in.

The washing line was missing and Mehmet admitted taking it to capture Tulay, the court heard.

Two kitchen knives were missing, and Mehmet had washed a shirt for the first time in his marriage - the one from the day before, it is claimed.

Mrs Goren alleged Mehmet warned their marriage would be over if she ever mentioned Tulay's name again, telling her: 'Our children are no longer four children. From now on we only have three children.'

A week later Mrs Goren was again sent away. It is claimed that when she returned the next day the back garden looked like it had been dug up again, the patio was soaked with water and bin bags were missing.

A week later, jurors heard, Mehmet attacked Mr Unal with an axe. He was convicted of wounding with intent to cause grievous bodily harm in August 2000.

Around the time of the axe attack, a handwritten note was found in which Tulay claimed to have been kidnapped by a friend of Mr Unal.

Mr Laidlaw said Tulay was forced to write the note before her death to disrupt the inevitable police investigation.

The hearing continues.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...r-killing.html

Commentary by Robert Spencer:

After she lost her virginity she was viewed as a "valueless commodity." I have many times spoken about how Islam relegates women to the status of commodities, and here is proof. And of course the usual chorus of Islamic apologists will appear to assure us that honor killing has nothing to do with Islam and is a cultural practice followed by a wide variety of peoples -- and yet Muslim girls keep getting killed in disproportionate numbers. No one, of course, dares to confront the root of the problem by pointing out such inconvenient truths as the fact that a manual of Islamic law certified by Al-Azhar as a reliable guide to Sunni orthodoxy says that "retaliation is obligatory against anyone who kills a human being purely intentionally and without right." However, "not subject to retaliation" is "a father or mother (or their fathers or mothers) for killing their offspring, or offspring's offspring." ('Umdat al-Salik o1.1-2).{WM has pointed this out in previous posts}

In other words, someone who kills his child incurs no legal penalty under Islamic law. In accord with this, in 2003 the Jordanian Parliament voted down on Islamic grounds a provision designed to stiffen penalties for honor killings. Al-Jazeera reported that "Islamists and conservatives said the laws violated religious traditions and would destroy families and values."

http://www.jihadwatch.org/2009/10/uk...r-killing.html

[The Reaper]

Religion of Peace, indeed.

TR

[HOLLiS]

Maybe more like the religion of Pieces (of human).


If a person goes hunting, during hunting season but does not buy a licenses or tag and kills a game animal, their punishment will be greater than a person who commits murder (honor killing) under sharia law.

[greenberetTFS]

The only problem with stories like this is that the American MSM won't touch it with a ten foot pole,because it would offend the Muslims and they wouldn't dare do that.....

Big Teddy

[akv]

All of these honor killings are barbaric and such a tragic waste. It certainly seems the vast majority of instances come from Muslim communities, Is it possible however this is actually just a feature of Middle Eastern Culture? In my attempt to understand the hows and whys of this I came across accounts of honor killings among the Druze communities in Israel and Palestinian Christians as well.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/new...cle1489930.ece

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/programme...nt/4522465.stm

[T-Rock]

“Most Muslim apologists and also some gullible westerners want to argue that the ‘so called “honor killing” is not Islamic and it’s a tribal/cultural vice.’ This statement is utterly untrue and only a wish full covers up.” -Syed Kamran Mirza-

Quran- 4:15 “If any of your women are guilty of lewdness, take the evidence of four (reliable) witness from amongst you against them; if they testify, confine them to houses until death do claim them. Or God ordain for them some (other) way.”


Sahi Muslim No. 4206:
“A woman came to the prophet and asked for purification by seeking punishment. He told her to go away and seek God’s forgiveness. She persisted four times and admitted she was pregnant. He told her to wait until she had given birth. Then he said that the Muslim community should wait until she had weaned her child. When the day arrived for the child to take solid food, Muhammad handed the child over to the community. And when he had given command over her and she was put in a hole up to her breast, he ordered the people to stone her. Khalid b. al-Walid came forward with a stone which he threw at her head, and when the blood spurted on her face he cursed her.”

More here:
http://www.islam-watch.org/SyedKamra...or_killing.htm

[akv]

Originally Posted by T-Rock

“Most Muslim apologists and also some gullible westerners want to argue that the ‘so called “honor killing” is not Islamic and it’s a tribal/cultural vice.’ This statement is utterly untrue and only a wish full covers up.” -Syed Kamran Mirza-

No one here is denying the magnitude of the threat of Islam, or the need to take every step necessary to address it. It has glaring anachronistic and misogynistic weaknesess and will either evolve or die. The pagan religions of ancient Greece and Rome failed to evolve and died out to Christianity. However the pagans didn't have nuclear weapons technology and the ability to take a good chunk of the world with them on the way out.

I keep thinking about a post by Richard who said something to the effect, "well we found something to replace communism. "

I am missing something in the logic of your quote. Even if Mr. Mirza is a definitive authority on anything, his arguments seem to indicte Arab culture despite his conclusions. You cite some pretty harsh quotes from the Koran. But if Palestinian Christians and the Druze Arabs are also doing these horrible things to their women in this part of the world how are these verses applicable since they don't follow Islamic Law or read the Koran? You could make the argument one could find some equally horrible quotes out of the Bible if needed, but in that case is it religious or cultural? People from this part of the world seem to find it acceptable to kill their women for notions we find barbaric.

The other point is the frequency of occurrence. It certainly seems most of the time we hear about honor killings it comes from the Islamic community. So I could understand how given the numbers folks could feel honor killings are part of Islam.

But I wonder if these same folks would balk at the statement recent historical precedent shows "Christianity is more dangerous to Jews and other minorities than Islam"

Modern European Christian nations Italy and Nazi Germany plunged the world into war and murdered at least 6 million Jews not that long ago. You can say but they were evil Nazi's/Facists, they certainly were, but these German Christians celebrated Xmas, went to church, and believed in Jesus just like the American and British Christians who defeated them. They were all Christians, some were sheep led by evil men, and others were not. If the Nazi's would have won the German Christians would have eliminated the Jews, and lots of other folks.

I don't think it's as simple as you describe, but thank you regardless for defending our country.

[SF-TX]

Originally Posted by akv

All of these honor killings are barbaric and such a tragic waste. It certainly seems the vast majority of instances come from Muslim communities, Is it possible however this is actually just a feature of Middle Eastern Culture? In my attempt to understand the hows and whys of this I came across accounts of honor killings among the Druze communities in Israel and Palestinian Christians as well.

AKV,

Are you really trying to support your premise that honor killing is culturally motivated instead of religious with the two articles you referenced? Did you actually read the first article?

From the first article in the Times:

The first phase of the competition was a bikini contest. Ms Fares knew that parading in her red two-piece could be considered controversial in the Druze community, whose religion is an offshoot of Islam.

Her participation in the pageant even raised the judges’ eyebrows. “They were very surprised when they found out I was Druze. They asked me if it would be a problem for me to be in the contest. I told them ‘no’, that my whole family supported me,” Ms Fares said.

The second article discusses the honor killing of one Christian woman and two Muslim women. Hardly compelling evidence to suggest honor killings are cultural.

[Sigaba]

Originally Posted by akv

... Is it possible however this is actually just a feature of Middle Eastern Culture? In my attempt to understand the hows and whys of this I came across accounts of honor killings among the Druze communities in Israel and Palestinian Christians as well.

Originally Posted by SF-TX

AKV,

Are you really trying to support your premise that honor killing is culturally motivated instead of religious with the two articles you referenced? Did you actually read the first article?

<<SNIP>>

The second article discusses the honor killing of one Christian woman and two Muslim women. Hardly compelling evidence to suggest honor killings are cultural.

FWIW, my understanding of AKV's thoughtful post is that he's asking questions as the basis for the collection and analysis of additional information, not that he'd made any conclusions one way or another.

That some have reached conclusions with which they're comfortable does not mean that everyone should or must agree with those conclusions. YMMV.

[SF-TX]

Originally Posted by Sigaba

FWIW, my understanding of AKV's thoughtful post is that he's asking questions as the basis for the collection and analysis of additional information, not that he'd made any conclusions one way or another.

Then perhaps AKV should provide more information supporting the idea that honor killings are a result of location and culture rather than religion. On the other hand, there is ample information to suggest honor killings are sanctioned by Islamic law.

That some have reached conclusions with which they're comfortable does not mean that everyone should or must agree with those conclusions. YMMV

Here, you take much for granted.

[T-Rock]

This was an interesting read from the Middle East Quarterly
http://www.meforum.org/2067/are-hono...estic-violence

[akv]

SF-TX,

Islam is one of the greatest threats our country faces. When I see these honor killings posts, my reaction is disgust and bile for men who kill their daughters. I was raised in Texas to the same culture as many here, I believe any man who ever raises his hand to a woman is a coward, and deserves a beat down from other real men. The only possible exception here is a life threatening situation, but other than that I’m inflexible on this point. I am wholly inflexible on the issue of pedophiles. To use Col. Grossman’s analogy they are “wolves” who prey on children, I think this is just part of their DNA and cannot be remedied nor do I wish to understand it. An apologist to me is someone who says but they had bad childhoods, or we can reform them. No way, no argument no matter how eloquent will sway me here. Fry them, hang them from a tall tree, or slide them down a razor blade into a tank with a Great White and put it on pay per-view, with proceeds to go to the victims, I just don’t care.

Islam, a hot topic on this BB, is not so simple, and I am constantly amazed by the breadth and intelligence of the folks here. As a civilian I try to remain mindful of the fact there might be ugly facets of Islam only the men in our military who confront terror have seen. If one reads back through posts on this site there are QP’s and and civilians alike who eloquently make the case that Islam like any other religion is an operating system, based on faith, and thus vulnerable to being used as crutch for immoral actions.

As Sigaba astutely surmised I’m asking the question should I simply think of Islam the way I do of pedophiles? Now to your direct question.

Originally Posted by SF TX

Then perhaps AKV should provide more information supporting the idea that honor killings are a result of location and culture rather than religion. On the other hand, there is ample information to suggest honor killings are sanctioned by Islamic law.

First, to start I agree some of these verses from the Koran, etc. are quite horrid. You can find scripture to support any argument. Examples of Islamic scripture which decry violence towards women and support my is it cultural question on this topic can already be found here, under posts by Richard. IMHO one of the brightest, most balanced, and respected members of this forum, and a soldier and educator who has frankly lived stuff civilians read about. If as he posted female infanticide and barbarism towards women existed in this part of the world prior to Mohammed, how can you pin this on Islam instead of culture?

http://www.pbs.org/muhammad/ma_women.shtml

Or, if instead you believe the mandate for honor killings derives from scripture from the Koran, how do honor killings reconcile with the following verses?

Not only did the Koran outlaw female infanticide, which was widely practiced in Arabia at the time of the prophet Muhammed, it made it an issue to be especially addressed on Judgment Day:

"And when the girl-child buried alive is asked for what sin she was killed(Koran 81:8-9)"

Or even more generally,

[I]"Whosoever kills even one human being, other than for man slaughter or tyranny on earth, it would be as if they had killed all of humanity. And whosoever saves even one human life, it will be as if they have saved all of humankind (Koran 5:32)"

These quotes are right out of the Koran, which is supposedly inviolable for Muslims right? They are however like any scripture vulnerable to moral weakness and manipulation by evil men. I wonder if there was a German soldier in 1943 reflecting on the Golden Rule as he loaded little Jewish girls onto trains knowing it was a one way trip, as much as I wonder does an Islamic suicide bomber think of either of the above verses when he attacks a school full of innocent children?

Second, let’s set religion aside and look at geography. T-Rock cites Mr. Mirza’s arguments for honor killings being part of Islam in this very thread, but how should this be interpreted since from that very same piece,

Originally Posted by T-Rock

(quoting Mirza)

Family honor is one of the core values of Arab society. Anything from speaking with an unrelated man, to rumored pre-marital loss of virginity, to an extra-marital affair, refuses forced marriages; marry according to their will; or even women and girls who have been raped—can stain or destroy the family honor. Therefore, family members (parents, brothers, or sisters) kill the victim in order to remove the stain or maintain, and protect the honor of the family. Killers are given light sentences, sometimes with little or no jail time at all. The killers mainly defend their act of murder by referring to the Koran and Islam.

And read further on,

Honor killings happen only to some designated Muslim nations such as Saudi Arabia, Jordan, Syria, Yemen, Lebanon, Egypt, Sudan, the Gaza strip and the West Bank (Palestine), Jordan, Pakistan, Indonesia, Malaysia, Nigeria, Somalia, Turkey, Iran and some other south and central Asian countries. Bangladesh though a Muslim majority country—regular pattern of honor killings never happened as of today.

What is the least common denominator here? The culture in these parts of the world place lower value on life in general, particularly females. By my read Mirza puts a lot of this stuff at the feet of Arab culture, hiding behind Islam. A lot of the countries on this list are dominated by Arab culture, but not all Arabs are Muslims, and we have documented instances of honor killings from this region by folks from other religions. Several of these countries aren’t Arab, so is it Islam? No, there are clearly verses from the Koran which decry this sort of activity. I don’t know much about Bangladesh but if Mirza is credible, they are Muslims who don’t do this. Perhaps they find other excuses to kill their women. The least common denominator here seems women are treated with barbarism in the culture of Third World nations regardless of religion.

Third, My experience with the Druze is limited. A good friend of mine is an IDF vet, who told me they have their own units who served with honor in Israel’s wars with the Arabs.

Originally Posted by SF-TX

Ms Fares knew that parading in her red two-piece could be considered controversial in the Druze community, whose religion is an offshoot of Islam.

Their faith seems to incorporate beliefs from several religions. They don’t pray in Mosques, they believe in reincarnation, and evolution theory, but also practice monogamy. While they respect the Koran, their religious book is the Kitab al Hikma, they seem to be their own faith. I don’t think labeling them as a mere offshoot of Islam is any more accurate than labeling Christianity to be a mere offshoot of Judaism. Yet, they still have honor killings, and they aren’t Muslims so what is the least common denominator here?

So, respectfully, if these honor killings took place here before Mohammed, if there are clear verses in the Koran against this sort of thing, if folks from other religions in this region also commit honor killings, and finally if there are Muslims who don't do this, how is my question, is it possible this is regional culture instead of Islam taking too much for granted?

[T-Rock]

[i]"Whosoever kills even one human being, other than for man slaughter or tyranny on earth, it would be as if they had killed all of humanity. And whosoever saves even one human life, it will be as if they have saved all of humankind (Koran 5:32)"

Interesting how Sura 5:32 is frequently quoted out of context in relation to Sura 5:33. The result is that the part you quoted from verse 32 only applies to Muslims. It doesn't apply to non-Muslims. Anyone who doesn't accept Islam or is at war with Islam is making "corruption in the Earth," and is to be "killed or crucified." Those unwilling to submit to Islam are considered to be spreading mischief in the land...

Never mentioned by the President or any of the others who quote this verse as if it condemns Islamic jihadist violence are several important facts: it comes within the context of a warning to the Jews, and is not presented as a universal principle; it contains the important exception “unless it be for murder or for spreading mischief in the land,” and it is followed by v. 33, which specifies the punishment for that mischief: “The punishment of those who wage war against Allah and His Messenger, and strive with might and main for mischief through the land is: execution, or crucifixion, or the cutting off of hands and feet from opposite sides, or exile from the land: that is their disgrace in this world, and a heavy punishment is theirs in the Hereafter.”
Thus this passage is explaining what must be done with Jews who reject Muhammad, not dictating lofty moral principles. Ibn Warraq sums it up: “The supposedly noble sentiments are in fact a warning to Jews. ‘Behave, or else’ is the message. Far from abjuring violence, these verses aggressively point out that anyone opposing the Prophet will be killed, crucified, mutilated, and banished!”

http://www.jihadwatch.org/2007/09/bl...rses-1-60.html

http://www.americanthinker.com/blog/..._omits_5.html#

Sorry for the Hijack...

[Razor]

akv, are you trying to imply that India, Pakistan, Indonesia, Malaysia and other Southwest Asian and Pacific Island nations host strong arabic cultures separate and distinct from the influence of Islam, and that is the driving force behind the 'honor killings' of women there?

[akv]

Razor,

No, not at all, I thought the Mirza piece by my read put a lot of honor killings at the feet or Arab culture, but a lot of these countries aren't Arab but still have honor killings, so I was asking is it possible the least common denominator here in these honor killings isn't Islam, but a lower value of life, especially female life, in Third World cultures.

Originally Posted by akv

What is the least common denominator here? The culture in these parts of the world place lower value on life in general, particularly females. By my read Mirza puts a lot of this stuff at the feet of Arab culture, hiding behind Islam. [B]A lot of the countries on this list are dominated by Arab culture, but not all Arabs are Muslims, and we have documented instances of honor killings from this region by folks from other religions. Several of these countries aren’t Arab, so is it Islam?[/B] No, there are clearly verses from the Koran which decry this sort of activity. I don’t know much about Bangladesh but if Mirza is credible, they are Muslims who don’t do this. Perhaps they find other excuses to kill their women. The least common denominator here seems women are treated with barbarism in the culture of Third World nations regardless of religion.