Language advice needed

Spartan74 · 03-31-2005, 15:12

I have been studying Portuguese on and off for a couple years now. I've spent about 6 months in Brazil over the past 5 years and feel comfortable with the language but definitely not fluent. I would rate my proficiency of understanding about 80% spoken conversation....50% television...don't have too many problems ordering things over the telephone. I have a pretty good grasp of the basics but I am definitely continuing my studies.

Having given a little background info, my question is what advice can anyone give regarding studying basic spanish concurrently with advanced level Portuguese?
Would you reccomend becoming absolutely perfect in Portuguese before taking on Spanish or is it reasonable to begin basic Spanish at the same time? Also, I work with a lot of Mexicans, so I have a great oppurtunity to practice. Any advice is much appreciated. Thanks.

NousDefionsDoc · 03-31-2005, 15:35

You will confuse the two. I would switch to Spanish. Not very many people speak Portagee, but if you understand Spanish or Italian, you can understand it.

**Peregrino** · 03-31-2005, 16:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by NousDefionsDoc

You will confuse the two. I would switch to Spanish. Not very many people speak Portagee, but if you understand Spanish or Italian, you can understand it.

NDD is right about the probability of confusion. Spanish and Portugese are very similar. I've had the difference explained to me as Portugese being an archaic form of Spanish. (Something I'm sure the Portugese will resent.) Stick with the language that's going to be more useful in the long run. In today's world that means Spanish. And don't confuse street Mexican with educated Spanish. Learn the quality, root language and get it right the first time. All of the sub-groups understand the "mother tongue", none of them will admit to understanding each other. (Try getting a Mexican to interpret for a Puerto Rican - or vice versa!) You'll have a lifetime to pick up regional dialects but if you start there you'll always be marked if you try to cross over between the various subcultures - something that can be a handicap in our line of work. Something like a "Down Easter' in Mobile, or a "Valley Girl" anywhere. FWIW - Peregrino

Dustin03 · 03-31-2005, 16:57

so while on the topic, any advice on a language to pick up for a 20th grp guy? I'm kinda bored and thought about learning an extra language just for kicks and giggles. i did take a year of french my freshman year of HS, super easy.

frostfire · 03-31-2005, 22:01

Extra language? Will you take advice of any kind?

Well then, learn Chinese/Mandarin
It's moving fast to be (or it is already) the 2nd international language, especially in trade & outsourcing, and other means of globalization

504PIR · 04-01-2005, 08:01

Chinese is an excellant choice and a good career enhancer. I believe we need a bunch speakers as....the Red Chinese are our new rival...more dangerous than the Islamic terrorist..IMHO

NousDefionsDoc · 04-01-2005, 10:48

Quote:

the Red Chinese are our new rival...more dangerous than the Islamic terrorist..IMHO

ghuinness is looking for CAS.

Target Coords

12B4S · 04-03-2005, 02:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by Spartan74

I have been studying Portuguese on and off for a couple years now. I've spent about 6 months in Brazil over the past 5 years and feel comfortable with the language but definitely not fluent. I would rate my proficiency of understanding about 80% spoken conversation....50% television...don't have too many problems ordering things over the telephone. I have a pretty good grasp of the basics but I am definitely continuing my studies.

Having given a little background info, my question is what advice can anyone give regarding studying basic spanish concurrently with advanced level Portuguese?
Would you reccomend becoming absolutely perfect in Portuguese before taking on Spanish or is it reasonable to begin basic Spanish at the same time? Also, I work with a lot of Mexicans, so I have a great oppurtunity to practice. Any advice is much appreciated. Thanks.

Take all the advice you have been given to this point. When I served in SF in Germany. my team was sent to language school in O'gau. We were taught the proper (Hoch Deutsch). At that time there were 16 dialects of the German language. NONE, more different than between Hoch Deutsch and Bayerish. Have stories if you want.
Came down to this, ALL Germans learn Hoch Deutsch in school growing up. Whether they choose to use it down the road is thier decision. In Bavaria, they were and have always been proud. Going back to WW2. (That may open up some stuff). They understand Hoch Deutsch (proper German), BUT refuse to speak it. Enough of that, those previous posts were dead on.

**Airbornelawyer** · 04-04-2005, 10:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by 12B4S

Take all the advice you have been given to this point. When I served in SF in Germany. my team was sent to language school in O'gau. We were taught the proper (Hoch Deutsch). At that time there were 16 dialects of the German language. NONE, more different than between Hoch Deutsch and Bayerish. Have stories if you want.
Came down to this, ALL Germans learn Hoch Deutsch in school growing up. Whether they choose to use it down the road is thier decision. In Bavaria, they were and have always been proud. Going back to WW2. (That may open up some stuff). They understand Hoch Deutsch (proper German), BUT refuse to speak it. Enough of that, those previous posts were dead on.

Bavarian pride goes back well before World War Two. Bavaria was an independent kingdom, a rival to Prussia and a Catholic state in a heavily Protestant country.

Bavaria was established as a duchy in the late 8th Century. In 1180, the Holy Roman Emperor gave the duchy to Otto von Wittelsbach, whose family would rule Bavaria until 1918.

During the Reformation, many German states converted to Lutheranism, but Bavaria remained staunchly Catholic. Duke Maximilian I of Bavaria headed the Catholic League in the Thirty Years' War, and during his reign, the Duke of Bavaria became an elector (Kurfürst) of the Holy Roman Empire. Bavaria allied with Napoleon and when Napoleon dissolved the Holy Roman Empire in 1806, Bavaria was elevated to a kingdom. Bavaria changed sides in 1813, and lost almost none of its territory after the Congress of Vienna in 1815, although its status was lessened as Prussia and Austria became the main rivals for German leadership.

Under King Maximilian II, Bavaria was known as a relatively liberal place, politically and culturally, and the king tried to form an alliance of the predominantly Catholic southern German states to rival Prussia. Unfortunately, he died in 1864, and was succeeded by a lunatic, Ludwig II, AKA "Mad King Ludwig". Also, in 1866 the southern states, led by Austria and Bavaria, were soundly defeated by Prussia and the northern states in the Seven Weeks' War.

Bavaria and all of the southern states except Austria joined the Prussian-led North German Confederation, which became the German Empire after the defeat of France in 1871. However, Bavaria retained more freedom than most of the other German states, including its own army. The Kingdom of Saxony also kept its own army, while all of the other German states' forces became part of the Prussian Army (Württemberg's was also nominally separate, but was effectively just a corps of the Prussian Army).

Defeat in World War One would lead to the abdication of King Ludwig III in 1918, ending 738 years of Wittelsbach rule. A short-lived socialist republic was crushed and Bavaria became a state of the Weimar Republic. It lost what autonomy it retained during the Third Reich, but the Free State of Bavaria (Freistaat Bayern) was created after World War Two.

Most German states today are the result of the break-up of Prussian lands or the mixing of smaller German states (Baden-Württemberg, for example, merged the Grand Duchy of Baden with the Kingdom of Württemberg). Only Bavaria is effectively the same state it was before the Nazi era.

By the way, bayerisch is not the most different German dialect from standard hochdeutsch. Lëtzebuergesch, the language spoken in Luxembourg, is further removed, as are plattdeutsch dialects like friesisch and Dutch, which are so different they are considered separate languages from German.

Actually, most of the plattdeutsch dialects of north Germany are not mutually intelligible with hochdeutsch, but unlike the south, most have given way to hochdeutsch. The dialects are still spoken in villages, but in the major north German cities like Hamburg, Bremen and Berlin, standard hochdeutsch is spoken. Among working class folk in places like Cologne, though, local dialects can still be heard (Kölsch is not just the local beer, but also the local language).

Swiss German, also known as Schwyzerdütsch, is an Alemannic (alemannisch) dialect and is also further removed from High German than bayerisch.

Also, bayerisch is the dialect of Munich, much of Austria, and the Alpenvorland, including places I'm sure you're familiar with like O'gau, Garmisch and Bad Tölz, but other parts of Bavaria speak different dialects. In the area between Nuremberg and Würzburg, Franconian (fränkisch) is spoken. Swabian (or schwäbisch), the main dialect of Württemberg, reaches as far as Augsburg. Swabian is the "hick" dialect of Germany, and Swabians are routinely the butt of jokes for their thick nasal accents and pig-farming. Field Marshal Erwin Rommel was a Swabian, and was known for his thick accent.

12B4S · 04-05-2005, 21:30

Thanks for the information AL. Some of that history, I was aware of, most of it I was not. Our language teacher explained many of those dialects, you brought up. Although I was in northern Germany several times, I really didn't have the chance to get out amongst the locals. Most of my exposure was in Bavaria.

When the Team was sent to O'gau for language school, we commuted everyday, so most nights in Toelz I would be at a friend's restaurant/bar. I felt like I was learning two languages, Hochdeutsch during the day and Bavarian at night. I was fortunate to have several good friends from Toelz, plus one of the guys was married to a local gal. I sort of ended up learning and using both simultaneously.

**Airbornelawyer** · 04-06-2005, 08:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by 12B4S

Thanks for the information AL. Some of that history, I was aware of, most of it I was not. Our language teacher explained many of those dialects, you brought up. Although I was in northern Germany several times, I really didn't have the chance to get out amongst the locals. Most of my exposure was in Bavaria.

When the Team was sent to O'gau for language school, we commuted everyday, so most nights in Toelz I would be at a friend's restaurant/bar. I felt like I was learning two languages, Hochdeutsch during the day and Bavarian at night. I was fortunate to have several good friends from Toelz, plus one of the guys was married to a local gal. I sort of ended up learning and using both simultaneously.

I wonder what it's like for foreign (and non-English-speaking Puerto Rican) students coming to the US who go to English-language school at Lackland AFB, Texas? Texas English is more an accent than a dialect, but it has to cause problems for some. Imagine if they moved the school to Fort Polk.

12B4S · 04-06-2005, 21:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by Airbornelawyer

I wonder what it's like for foreign (and non-English-speaking Puerto Rican) students coming to the US who go to English-language school at Lackland AFB, Texas? Texas English is more an accent than a dialect, but it has to cause problems for some. Imagine if they moved the school to Fort Polk.

Texas would be tough enough AL, just with the accent and idioms. Around Ft Polk or somewhere in the deep south, God help them.

One advantage I had, was that most of the folks I knew in Toelz also spoke English. Without that, I would have learned very little bayerisch. Did notice one thing though. The more beer, the better I could speak both languages/dialects.

**Airbornelawyer** · 04-07-2005, 10:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by 12B4S

Texas would be tough enough AL, just with the accent and idioms. Around Ft Polk or somewhere in the deep south, God help them.

One advantage I had, was that most of the folks I knew in Toelz also spoke English. Without that, I would have learned very little bayerisch. Did notice one thing though. The more beer, the better I could speak both languages/dialects.

I too have noticed that my fluency increases as I take in more fluids of the alcoholic variety.

For some, including me, this points to one of the biggest problems in language-learning, overcoming the inhibition of sounding stupid. And alcohol certainly helps you overcome inhibitions. Maybe they should add liquid lunches in the language labs.

Of course, overcoming the inhibition won't actually keep you from sounding stupid.

vsvo · 04-07-2005, 11:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by Airbornelawyer

For some, including me, this points to one of the biggest problems in language-learning, overcoming the inhibition of sounding stupid.

That's interesting AL. I'd never heard that before but it explains a lot for me thinking back about learning different languages in school.

Regarding Texas, we lived in Houston for a year when I was in the fourth grade, before moving back to the northeast. I remember the first day in school after moving back, the kids asked me about my "southern" accent, when I didn't even realize I had acquired an accent (so now maybe I shouldn't be so hard on Madonna). To this day, "y'all" sounds more natural to me than "you all," which sounds awkward.

I did my b-school summer internship in London. I still remember clearly the first time someone at work asked me, "Where are you from with that American accent?" Maybe it was because they heard it coming out of an Asian dude, I don't know.

**Airbornelawyer** · 04-07-2005, 13:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by vsvo

Regarding Texas, we lived in Houston for a year when I was in the fourth grade, before moving back to the northeast. I remember the first day in school after moving back, the kids asked me about my "southern" accent, when I didn't even realize I had acquired an accent (so now maybe I shouldn't be so hard on Madonna). To this day, "y'all" sounds more natural to me than "you all," which sounds awkward.

Harvard did a big study of American dialects a few years ago. Question 50 was "What word(s) do you use to address a group of two or more people?". 10,764 people responded:

- you guys (42.53%)
- you (24.82%)
- y'all (13.99%)
- you all (12.63%)
- yous, youse (0.67%)
- yins (0.37%)
- you 'uns (0.20%)
- you lot (0.18%)
- other (4.62%)

"you guys" was big in the Northeast, upper midwest and Pacific coast. Map here.

"you" had almost the same distribution. Map here.

"you all" was slightly less concentrated, but mainly in the same areas. Map here.

"y'all" was a Southern thing, but there are a lot of Northeasterners using it. Map here.

"youse" and "yous" was almost entirely New York/New Jersey area. Map here.

"yins" and "you 'uns" seem to be Pittsburgh dialects: "Yins" here and "you 'uns" here.

"you lot" was scattered and too tiny a sample. Map here.

New Yorkers mainly use "you guys" (48.04%) and "you" (33.21%). "You all" was 9.10% and "y'all" was 5.24%.

Texans mainly use "y'all" (73.09%). "You guys" was a distant second at 11.40% and "you all" a distant third (8.78%). "You" was 5.17%.