Tactics gone wrong

[Team Sergeant]

About a half-hour before the deadline, a SWAT team used explosives to blow a hole in a classroom wall in hopes of getting a clear shot at him. When they couldn't see him through the gap, they blew the door off the hinges to get inside, said Lance Clem, a spokesman for the state Department of Public Safety.

Morrison fired at the SWAT officers, shot Keyes as she tried to run away and then killed himself, authorities said. During the gun battle, police shot Morrison several times, they said.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,216564,00.html

If what has been written above is true someone needs a lot more training.

Explosive breaching is not for amateurs. Does anyone know who did the breaching/assault?

(Yeah I'm really pissed that a little 16 year old girl is dead partly because of what I read above.)

Team Sergeant

[hoepoe]

Hi TS

Yeah,when i heard this i was surprised too. I am certainly no hostage rescuse expert, or even close, but why not use flash bang etc?

Regardless i think blowing hole in order to see him was the mistake, it gave him time to shoot abd by the time they breeched the door, surprise was out the window.

There are also many ways to 'see' a hostile without blowing a hole in a wall, maybe i am missing something here?

Sad ending indeed.

Hoepoe

[Jack Moroney (RIP)]

Originally Posted by Team Sergeant/

If what has been written above is true someone needs a lot more training.

I'd say so!!!

[incommin]

People work with what they have; don't always make the best decisions; and have to learn from their mistakes. I too am sick that a young girl paid the price for a LEO screw-up! I doubt I am as troubled as the officers who made the poor decisions.

I think our team would have just made the forced entry (blown the door), tossed in a flash bang, and then gone for the guy!



Jim

[Team Sergeant]

Originally Posted by incommin

People work with what they have;



Jim

Had this been an "Emergency" assault I'd agree with you. You must also know when the operation is "out of your league".

This was no emergency or hasty assault, it was planned thus a "deliberate" assault. The use of explosives to breech walls and doors makes it a major league operation, small PD's have no business even attempting such a deliberate takedown.

I'll reserve further opinion until it is disclosed just who did the assault.

TS

[CoLawman]

I have some insight into the rescue attempt and am familiar with the Jefferson County SWAT Team. Jeff Co was called in as Park County Sheriff Department, whose jurisdiction Bailey is situated, is a small agency with no SWAT. Jeff Co is a Metro agency that borders western and southern Denver. Park County is on their south border.

A couple of things that came into play:

The badguy had released hostages during the ordeal who supplied information to LE. This information included;
the fact that the badguy was sexually assaulting the females.

The method and extent to which the room had been barricaded, to include desks and chairs being piled up in front of the door.

His stated possession of a bomb.

His stated deadline to kill the remaining two hostages.

This was not some impromptu taking of hostages. The entire scenario had been scripted by the badguy with his goal being an instigated gun battle with LE to the death. (His handwritten manuscript detailing this will probably be released)

The point of entry was selected by determining which entry point would offer the least amount of impediment to the target while minimizing risk to the hostages. 2X4's and Drywall or a door with furniture stacked up.

I believe it will also be discovered that this was not a single explosive entry. I think you will find that there were two simultaneous points. I think you will also eventually learn, through official channels, that diversion was used ( as suggested in a previous post.)

I too was upset that a small girl was killed. I was even mad at Jeff Co SWAT for awhile, thinking.........what if my little girl. When the smoke cleared I came to the realization that in a rescue attempt, such as this, there is no room for error. Absolutely no room for error. The cards are stacked in the favor of the badguy.

Which one of you can honestly say, putting yourself in the same position as the badguy, that you would not be able to get off a shot as SWAT was coming through the wall or door. Some of you could get off several well placed shots even on a perfectly executed entry.

It was a difficult task performed by men willing to take that bullet for the little girl. Men who have daughters near the age of the victim. Each of them will live with feelings of impotence. But were they impotent or were they given a mission with a low probability of complete success. I think the latter. In fact, SWAT actions by their very nature have low probabilities of success.

As a side note this school was built after the Columbine incident. Special architechural designs were implemented to address just this scenario.

[Team Sergeant]

Originally Posted by CoLawman

I have some insight into the rescue attempt and am familiar with the Jefferson County SWAT Team. Jeff Co was called in as Park County Sheriff Department, whose jurisdiction Bailey is situated, is a small agency with no SWAT. Jeff Co is a Metro agency that borders western and southern Denver. Park County is on their south border.

A couple of things that came into play:

The badguy had released hostages during the ordeal who supplied information to LE. This information included;
the fact that the badguy was sexually assaulting the females.

The method and extent to which the room had been barricaded, to include desks and chairs being piled up in front of the door.

His stated possession of a bomb.

His stated deadline to kill the remaining two hostages.

This was not some impromptu taking of hostages. The entire scenario had been scripted by the badguy with his goal being an instigated gun battle with LE to the death. (His handwritten manuscript detailing this will probably be released)

The point of entry was selected by determining which entry point would offer the least amount of impediment to the target while minimizing risk to the hostages. 2X4's and Drywall or a door with furniture stacked up.

I believe it will also be discovered that this was not a single explosive entry. I think you will find that there were two simultaneous points. I think you will also eventually learn, through official channels, that diversion was used ( as suggested in a previous post.)

I too was upset that a small girl was killed. I was even mad at Jeff Co SWAT for awhile, thinking.........what if my little girl. When the smoke cleared I came to the realization that in a rescue attempt, such as this, there is no room for error. Absolutely no room for error. The cards are stacked in the favor of the badguy.

Which one of you can honestly say, putting yourself in the same position as the badguy, that you would not be able to get off a shot as SWAT was coming through the wall or door. Some of you could get off several well placed shots even on a perfectly executed entry.

It was a difficult task performed by men willing to take that bullet for the little girl. Men who have daughters near the age of the victim. Each of them will live with feelings of impotence. But were they impotent or were they given a mission with a low probability of complete success. I think the latter. In fact, SWAT actions by their very nature have low probabilities of success.

As a side note this school was built after the Columbine incident. Special architechural designs were implemented to address just this scenario.

All that being said, if it were my daughter I'd demand the teams training records, breaching trainingg records and schools attended with emphasis on who attended the breaching school and who taught it.

I'll say no more. (Joe Public is on his own.)

Team Sergeant

[Gene Econ]

Originally Posted by Team Sergeant

If what has been written above is true someone needs a lot more training.

Explosive breaching is not for amateurs. Does anyone know who did the breaching/assault?

(Yeah I'm really pissed that a little 16 year old girl is dead partly because of what I read above.)

Team Sergeant

TS:

WTF? Sounds like a bunch of liberals to me. If you investigate this entire incident you will find all the mental illness of liberalism. Not enough demo in the wrong places and not enough aggressive advance. Of course if they did these things , the law suits would be more significant than they will be now.

The poor child had no chance. Liberalism in the LEA and the country is a death sentence.

Be pissed if you want. If you have kids -- send them to a private school.

As for me? Tell the fuck he has five minutes to surrender and then attack with full force via four different means within thirty seconds of giving the five minute ultimatum. Shoot the poor victim of society (according to the American Communist Party) various times ((at least twenty with the liberal ammo that LEA is forced to carry today (something less than .45 inches in diameter)), and do so directly between the running lights. Then you just "let the big dog eat."

He may just shoot the poor child but the communists in this country have set the stage for such antics by scumbags. The best we can hope for is that the scumbag won't cost us hundreds of thousands of dollars in appeals. This one didn't and I honestly would rather kill off his entire blood line than listen to the media tell me how this subhuman had some mental disorder.

The only mental disorder this piece of filth had was a lack of 'Pb' in his brain.

Gene

[incommin]

I still say that teams work with what they have and do the best they can udner the cirumstances they are given. It is not a perfect world. You can't control everything all the time.

The SWAT team that shot the dirt bag in Fl yesterday is going to catch hell from the liberal left...... the dirt bag never fired a round and the team emptied their magazines..... my buddies tell me the bad guy was hit over a hundred times......at close range. Real close range.

Jim

[CPTAUSRET]

Originally Posted by incommin

the dirt bag never fired a round and the team emptied their magazines..... my buddies tell me the bad guy was hit over a hundred times......at close range. Real close range.

Jim

Good outcome!

[kgoerz]

From the reports I read. it was obvious that the two Explosive Breaches were carried out simultaneously, they always are when creating a Port Hole. It is common practice for LEO to create Port Holes for security of the Entry Team. Many LEA'S today use Explosive Breaching. Just attend the next Breachers symposium. With today’s prefabricated firing Systems and Charges or Charge Frame material. Explosive Breaching has been simplified. Of course target analysis is still a complicated skill. All an Agency has to do is send a couple of there officers to one of The Many certified Breaching Courses and they are good to go on the training side as far as legalities go when conducting Explosive Breaching. That’s all I can add to this until a full report is released. I praise them for having the Balls to use Explosive Breaching and not to mention putting their lives at risk to save someone Else's life.
"A plan is only good to the first shot is fired"

[CATAtonic426]

How does the thickness of a wall come into play when breaching? My high school was built in the '50s when everyone was afraid of nuclear strikes... walls were about 6" thick solid concrete.

[NousDefionsDoc]

Originally Posted by CATAtonic426

How does the thickness of a wall come into play when breaching? My high school was built in the '50s when everyone was afraid of nuclear strikes... walls were about 6" thick solid concrete.

Think about it. At some point during your training, somebody probably told you "There is no such thing as a stupid question." They lied. There won't be any in-depth discussions of specific breaching techniques or target analysis done in this, an open forum on the internet.

[CATAtonic426]

Moving, NDD.

[kgoerz]

There won't be any in-depth discussions of specific breaching techniques or target analysis done in this, an open forum on the internet.

I was just begining.........you never let me play.......