07-08-2006, 18:30
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#1
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Quiet Professional
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Lawyers UP!
And anybody else with a reasonable opinion that wants to play.
1. Is the US Constitution law? Not in the abstract sense. I say it is above law - that law arises from it.
2. Can the POTUS be impeached for "leaking" classified documents? I say no, because he is the declassifying authority.
3. Could the 25th be used to remove a President for divulging classified information? I say yes - if such disclosure demonstrates an inability to perform the duties of his office.
4. Why is the Presidential oath the only oath spelled out in the Constitution? It requires an oath or affirmation for the others - found in the US Code - but does not spell them out.
__________________
Somewhere a True Believer is training to kill you. He is training with minimal food or water, in austere conditions, training day and night. The only thing clean on him is his weapon and he made his web gear. He doesn't worry about what workout to do - his ruck weighs what it weighs, his runs end when the enemy stops chasing him. This True Believer is not concerned about 'how hard it is;' he knows either he wins or dies. He doesn't go home at 17:00, he is home.
He knows only The Cause.
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NousDefionsDoc is offline
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07-08-2006, 19:33
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#2
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Consigliere
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Tomorrow.
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Roguish Lawyer is offline
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07-08-2006, 19:44
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#3
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by NousDefionsDoc
And anybody else with a reasonable opinion that wants to play.
1. Is the US Constitution law? Not in the abstract sense. I say it is above law - that law arises from it.
2. Can the POTUS be impeached for "leaking" classified documents? I say no, because he is the declassifying authority.
3. Could the 25th be used to remove a President for divulging classified information? I say yes - if such disclosure demonstrates an inability to perform the duties of his office.
4. Why is the Presidential oath the only oath spelled out in the Constitution? It requires an oath or affirmation for the others - found in the US Code - but does not spell them out.
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Okay, I'll play.
1. IMHO, the Constitution is both the basis for law, and a delineation of rights which cannot be legislated.
2. The POTUS can be impeached for any offense the required number of Congressmen vote for.
3. It could be the basis for an attempt to remove the POTUS. Success depends on the number of members of Congress who will vote for it.
4. Jefferson ran out of paper.
TR
__________________
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood; who strives valiantly; who errs, who comes short again and again, because there is no effort without error and shortcoming; but who does actually strive to do the deeds; who knows great enthusiasms, the great devotions; who spends himself in a worthy cause; who at the best knows in the end the triumph of high achievement, and who at the worst, if he fails, at least fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who neither know victory nor defeat." - President Theodore Roosevelt, 1910
De Oppresso Liber 01/20/2025
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The Reaper is offline
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07-08-2006, 21:25
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#4
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by The Reaper
Okay, I'll play.
4. Jefferson ran out of paper.
TR
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Sorry Boss - IIRC Jefferson was in France when they were writing the Constitution. He can't be blamed for that one. Try James Madison and his buds.  Peregrino
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Peregrino is offline
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07-09-2006, 13:09
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#5
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Consigliere
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by NousDefionsDoc
And anybody else with a reasonable opinion that wants to play.
1. Is the US Constitution law? Not in the abstract sense. I say it is above law - that law arises from it.
2. Can the POTUS be impeached for "leaking" classified documents? I say no, because he is the declassifying authority.
3. Could the 25th be used to remove a President for divulging classified information? I say yes - if such disclosure demonstrates an inability to perform the duties of his office.
4. Why is the Presidential oath the only oath spelled out in the Constitution? It requires an oath or affirmation for the others - found in the US Code - but does not spell them out.
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1. Yes, it is the supreme law of the land.
2. I agree with TR that you probably can be impeached for anything Congress will vote for, although the Supreme Court theoretically could entertain a suit by an impeached President against Congress alleging that the basis for impeachment was not a "high crime or misdemeanor."
3. See #2 -- probably comes down to votes, first by VP and majority of Execs, then Congress if POTUS disputes. Without looking carefully at the issue, it appears that there is less opportunity to seek judicial review.
4. Good question. I would consult Farrand to see if there is an answer there.
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Roguish Lawyer is offline
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07-09-2006, 13:20
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#6
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#2 - I understand what you are saying, but would it be with the letter and spirit? If the POTUS is the declassifying authority and he authorizes release, how is that a high crime or misdemeanor?
The they can do what they are willing to vote for aside.
Can the President be impeached for violating his oath of office without having committed a crime?
__________________
Somewhere a True Believer is training to kill you. He is training with minimal food or water, in austere conditions, training day and night. The only thing clean on him is his weapon and he made his web gear. He doesn't worry about what workout to do - his ruck weighs what it weighs, his runs end when the enemy stops chasing him. This True Believer is not concerned about 'how hard it is;' he knows either he wins or dies. He doesn't go home at 17:00, he is home.
He knows only The Cause.
Still want to quit?
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NousDefionsDoc is offline
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07-09-2006, 13:36
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#7
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Consigliere
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by NousDefionsDoc
#2 - I understand what you are saying, but would it be with the letter and spirit? If the POTUS is the declassifying authority and he authorizes release, how is that a high crime or misdemeanor?
The they can do what they are willing to vote for aside.
Can the President be impeached for violating his oath of office without having committed a crime?
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This is not my area, but I would think that technically he is supposed to declassify the documents, then release them. That being said, it's a "no harm, no foul" sort of thing, and there are a lot of areas of the law in which that concept governs.
I don't think you need to commit a crime to be impeached.
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Roguish Lawyer is offline
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07-09-2006, 14:29
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#8
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Guerrilla Chief
Join Date: Mar 2004
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by NousDefionsDoc
Can the President be impeached for violating his oath of office without having committed a crime?
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The only specific duty set forth in the oath is to "preserve, protect and defend the Constitution of the United States" to the best of the affiants* ability.
Because it is a constitutional requirement, and because the Constitution is the highest law in the land, it would be difficult for a violation of that oath not to be a criminal act. That said, I'm sure someone can game up a scenario under which a violation of the oath of office is not criminal.
*Is "affiant" the correct word RL?
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"How can a pacifist, tolerant anti-violence, anti-hunting, anti Second Amendment, anti-self-defense group turn to violence against a party that is pro- all of that?" - The Reaper, 11Oct04 14:42hrs
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Bravo1-3 is offline
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07-09-2006, 14:43
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#9
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Roguish Lawyer
This is not my area, but I would think that technically he is supposed to declassify the documents, then release them. That being said, it's a "no harm, no foul" sort of thing, and there are a lot of areas of the law in which that concept governs.
I don't think you need to commit a crime to be impeached.
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Can you give me an example of a hypothetical in which one could be impeached without having committed a crime?
BTW, I have my own theory about why the POTUS oath is the only one in there, want to hear it?
__________________
Somewhere a True Believer is training to kill you. He is training with minimal food or water, in austere conditions, training day and night. The only thing clean on him is his weapon and he made his web gear. He doesn't worry about what workout to do - his ruck weighs what it weighs, his runs end when the enemy stops chasing him. This True Believer is not concerned about 'how hard it is;' he knows either he wins or dies. He doesn't go home at 17:00, he is home.
He knows only The Cause.
Still want to quit?
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NousDefionsDoc is offline
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07-09-2006, 15:19
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#10
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Guest
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by NousDefionsDoc
BTW, I have my own theory about why the POTUS oath is the only one in there, want to hear it?
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Yupp!
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07-09-2006, 15:40
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#11
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Quiet Professional
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They just came off a fight from with a monarchy. They knew how that shit worked and knew to be careful of it. And they had seen the lack results of the Articles of Confederation. My guess is they were worried about Washington or someone like him being the binder - either fear of the man or fear it would fall apart with the change. They were doing everything possible to control what they saw as the central piece on the board. They weren't scared of any other branch because they involved more than one person. No concensus. Very intelligent IMO for the times.
Or, they were looking to make The Man with an eye on Washington. I lean to the former.
Just my uneducated opinion.
__________________
Somewhere a True Believer is training to kill you. He is training with minimal food or water, in austere conditions, training day and night. The only thing clean on him is his weapon and he made his web gear. He doesn't worry about what workout to do - his ruck weighs what it weighs, his runs end when the enemy stops chasing him. This True Believer is not concerned about 'how hard it is;' he knows either he wins or dies. He doesn't go home at 17:00, he is home.
He knows only The Cause.
Still want to quit?
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NousDefionsDoc is offline
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07-09-2006, 15:42
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#12
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Consigliere
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by NousDefionsDoc
They just came off a fight from with a monarchy. They knew how that shit worked and knew to be careful of it. And they had seen the lack results of the Articles of Confederation. My guess is they were worried about Washington or someone like him being the binder - either fear of the man or fear it would fall apart with the change. They were doing everything possible to control what they saw as the central piece on the board. They weren't scared of any other branch because they involved more than one person. No concensus. Very intelligent IMO for the times.
Or, they were looking to make The Man with an eye on Washington. I lean to the former.
Just my uneducated opinion.
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They definitely were scared of the other branches too, but I think you may be correct about the oath for POTUS.
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Roguish Lawyer is offline
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07-09-2006, 15:46
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#13
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by NousDefionsDoc
Can you give me an example of a hypothetical in which one could be impeached without having committed a crime?
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Sure, Congress doesn't like the President's policies so they impeach him. He'd have to either refuse to recognize the impeachment (claiming it was unauthorized) or seek judicial review to challenge it. He is supposed to be removed only for bribery, treason or other high crimes or misdemeanors, but that wouldn't necessarily stop Congress from exceeding its constitutional authority.
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Roguish Lawyer is offline
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07-09-2006, 15:52
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#14
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I understand that RL, but I am talking about legal, not the real world. I know Congress can get out of control. theory man, theory.
Why weren't the Rosenbergs tried for treason instead of espionage?
__________________
Somewhere a True Believer is training to kill you. He is training with minimal food or water, in austere conditions, training day and night. The only thing clean on him is his weapon and he made his web gear. He doesn't worry about what workout to do - his ruck weighs what it weighs, his runs end when the enemy stops chasing him. This True Believer is not concerned about 'how hard it is;' he knows either he wins or dies. He doesn't go home at 17:00, he is home.
He knows only The Cause.
Still want to quit?
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NousDefionsDoc is offline
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07-09-2006, 15:54
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#15
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Quiet Professional
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Roguish Lawyer
They definitely were scared of the other branches too, but I think you may be correct about the oath for POTUS.
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Ok.
__________________
Somewhere a True Believer is training to kill you. He is training with minimal food or water, in austere conditions, training day and night. The only thing clean on him is his weapon and he made his web gear. He doesn't worry about what workout to do - his ruck weighs what it weighs, his runs end when the enemy stops chasing him. This True Believer is not concerned about 'how hard it is;' he knows either he wins or dies. He doesn't go home at 17:00, he is home.
He knows only The Cause.
Still want to quit?
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NousDefionsDoc is offline
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