Chaplain fired for prayer in Jesus' name

SouthernDZ · 03-02-2007, 11:03

Chaplain fired for prayer in Jesus' name

March 2, 2007

A federal appeals court in Washington cleared the way for the U.S. Navy to dismiss Chaplain Gordon Klingenschmitt, who earned the ire of his commanders with his prayers "in Jesus' name". His 16-year career officially ended at midnight Thursday.

"It's now official and final. Yesterday I was booted from the Navy. As of midnight last night, I became a civilian. Yesterday, I received orders to separate by 1 Mar 07, so I signed the DD 214 ending my 16 year military career," Klingenschmitt said.

He told reporters that to further punish him, he was informed that the chief of naval operations had contacted the Conservative Political Action Conference, where Klingenschmitt had been invited to deliver the invocation Thursday night, and had his invitation rescinded, Christian Newswire reported Friday.

Klingenschmitt was listed on the CPAC Program to deliver the invocation at a conference where Vice President Dick Cheney was scheduled to be, but was 'disinvited'. "The Navy is embarrassed that I might have prayed in Jesus' name in front of the Vice President!"

Earlier, Klingenschmitt told reporters that the costs of the battle have been high but worthwhile, because Congress has already instructed that the policy be rescinded, and other chaplains will have the freedom that Klingenschmitt sought.

"My sacrifice purchased their freedom. My conscience is clear, the fight was worth it, and I'd do it all again," he said. Klingenschmitt ran into trouble when he publicly prayed 'in Jesus name' during a rally for embattled Judge Roy Moore at the White House last winter. Judge Moore was removed from his office when he refused to follow a federal court order he considered unlawful: to remove a Ten Commandments monument from public property.

The Navy convicted Chaplain Klingenschmitt of failing to follow a lawful order because his superior didn't want him praying "in Jesus' name". But when Congress got word of Klingenshcmitt's fine of $3,000, it caught their attention, and they ordered the Navy to remove the limitation and allow chaplains to pray as their 'conscience dictates'.

sg1987 · 03-02-2007, 11:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by SouthernDZ

Chaplain fired for prayer in Jesus' name

March 2, 2007

The Navy convicted Chaplain Klingenschmitt of failing to follow a lawful order because his superior didn't want him praying "in Jesus' name". But when Congress got word of Klingenshcmitt's fine of $3,000, it caught their attention, and they ordered the Navy to remove the limitation and allow chaplains to pray as their 'conscience dictates'.

Am I missing something here? If congress lifted the limitation; why is he still being punished?

dennisw · 03-02-2007, 12:02

This is the same kind of stuff which is the basis for the book, Boots on the Ground. The author's contention is that the chaplains are hamstrung by rules limiting what spiritual guidance they provide and access to the front lines. If some in America would have their way, the office of Chaplain would be eliminated completely. Of course those folks are not the ones in harms way.

I have no problems with Atheists. What a man believes is his own business. However, I do have a problem when the very few trying to dictate to the many the manner in which they worship and any attempts to limit the spiritual provisions for our troops.

sg1987 · 03-02-2007, 12:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by dennisw

However, I do have a problem when the very few trying to dictate to the many the manner in which they worship and any attempts to limit the spiritual provisions for our troops.

I see this as a left wing vs. right wing thing. Call it culture war,whatever. The wonderful progressive left wants to take us to new and better ground while the right sees where we come from and what/who made us great as a nation and says no thanks to the liberal. My .02.

Ret10Echo · 03-02-2007, 12:23

Extract from the Preface of Macniavellis Art of War

Many, Lorenzo, have held and still hold the opinion, that there is nothing which has less in common with another, and that is so dissimilar, as civilian life is from the military. Whence it is often observed, if anyone designs to avail himself of an enlistment in the army, that he soon changes, not only his clothes, but also his customs, his habits, his voice, and in the presence of any civilian custom, he goes to pieces; for I do not believe that any man can dress in civilian clothes who wants to be quick and ready for any violence; nor can that man have civilian customs and habits, who judges those customs to be effeminate and those habits not conducive to his actions; nor does it seem right to him to maintain his ordinary appearance and voice who, with his beard and cursing, wants to make other men afraid: which makes such an opinion in these times to be very true. But if they should consider the ancient institutions, they would not find matter more united, more in conformity, and which, of necessity, should be like to each other as much as these (civilian and military); for in all the arts that are established in a society for the sake of the common good of men, all those institutions created to (make people) live in fear of the laws and of God would be in vain, if their defense had not been provided for and which, if well arranged, will maintain not only these, but also those that are not well established. And so (on the contrary), good institutions without the help of the military are not much differently disordered than the habitation of a superb and regal palace, which, even though adorned with jewels and gold, if it is not roofed over will not have anything to protect it from the rain. And, if in any other institutions of a City and of a Republic every diligence is employed in keeping men loyal, peaceful, and full of the fear of God, it is doubled in the military; for in what man ought the country look for greater loyalty than in that man who has to promise to die for her? In whom ought there to be a greater love of peace, than in him who can only be injured by war? In whom ought there to be a greater fear of God than in him who, undergoing infinite dangers every day, has more need for His aid? If these necessities in forming the life of the soldier are well considered, they are found to be praised by those who gave the laws to the Commanders and by those who were put in charge of military training, and followed and imitated with all diligence by others.

echoes · 03-02-2007, 12:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by SouthernDZ

Chaplain fired for prayer in Jesus' name

Sir,

Amazing that this was posted today...today my father was telling me old tales , that I had never heard before, of His time in the Navy. This story co-incides with what he told me, so I guess some things do not change. It is aparent that PC is still alive and well.

(note:WE are not PC in my family)

Congress can pass all the laws it see's fit, but in the Navy, "they" deal with thier own, for good and bad.

Holly

bluebb · 03-02-2007, 13:17

Can the Muslim clerics in the military still use Mohammads name when praying?

Just wondering.

blue

**Dan** · 03-02-2007, 13:38

SouthernDZ, Please make sure you attribute your source of news articles.

---break---

I personally believe that he and others should be able to pray in Jesus' name because that is how Christians should pray.

The article SouthernDZ posted is not the whole truth...no one is booted from the military as quickly as the article leads you to believe. Yes...he prayed in Jesus' name and should, but the real reason he ran into trouble with the Navy is not reported properly in the posted article. He disobeyed an order to not wear his uniform while publicly protesting the Navy's policy over using non-denominational prayers only.

echoes · 03-02-2007, 14:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dan

...but the real reason he ran into trouble with the Navy is not reported properly in the posted article. He disobeyed an order to not wear his uniform while publicly protesting the Navy's policy over using non-denominational prayers only.

Sir,
That fact has me scratching my head as to how the United States Navy, a branch of Our Armed Forces, could do such a thing?

I suppose I am too old fashioned.

Holly

sg1987 · 03-02-2007, 15:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dan

He disobeyed an order to not wear his uniform while publicly protesting the Navy's policy over using non-denominational prayers only.

He was hired to do the job of a Christian minister just like the Muslim clerics we seek out for hire as a Chaplin. If he is a Christian minister he is required by his faith to disobey an order that he believes would conflict with the duty he owes to God- just a Muslim would / should.
That being said, our nation must make a choice, Jesus, Allah, or a secular view. All are mutually exclusive of the other because each of the big three religions claim the only way to God and the secular view denies the big three.
If our people choose the secular way - why do you need a Chaplin anyway? Spend the money on a Psychiatric counselor instead - we can't ride the fence.
(Joshua CH.24)

**Dan** · 03-02-2007, 15:15

Military law is very clear about not wearing your uniform when participating in "public speeches, interviews, picket lines, marches, rallies, or public demonstrations", except when it is authorized. He didn't have the authorization when he demonstrated in uniform and this is where he crossed the line, not by using Jesus' name in prayer. Always consider your source...which SouthernDZ left off of the article he posted and do your research before spouting off.

**Jack Moroney (RIP)** · 03-02-2007, 15:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dan

Military law is very clear about not wearing your uniform when participating in "public speeches, interviews, picket lines, marches, rallies, or public demonstrations", except when it is authorized. He didn't have the authorization when he demonstrated in uniform and this is where he crossed the line, not by using Jesus' name in prayer. Always consider your source...which SouthernDZ left off of the article he posted and do your research before spouting off.

Concurr completly. This whack job disobeyed a lawful order. It is quite simple, you are in the military or you are not in the military. You follow military law and the terms of your commission/contract or you follow whatever other pursuits you wish outside of the military. Chaplains may feel that they have devine guidance and that their heart lies with whatever faith and god to which they are devoted but when they are in the military their 4th POC belongs to the chain of command when it comes to following orders and adhering to the rules that are devined to establish good order and discipline.

echoes · 03-02-2007, 15:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dan

Always consider your source...which SouthernDZ left off of the article he posted and do your research before spouting off.

Sir,

NOT trying to "spout" here. I am genuinely curious, and applogize if I mis-spoke and caused offense.

Holly

sg1987 · 03-02-2007, 15:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by echoes

Sir,

NOT trying to "spout" here. I am genuinely curious, and applogize if I mis-spoke and caused offense.

Holly

Likewise Gents.

Quote:

Military law is very clear about not wearing your uniform when participating in "public speeches, interviews, picket lines, marches, rallies, or public demonstrations", except when it is authorized. He didn't have the authorization when he demonstrated in uniform and this is where he crossed the line, not by using Jesus' name in prayer. Always consider your source...which SouthernDZ left off of the article he posted and do your research before spouting off.

point taken.

Quote:

Chaplains may feel that they have devine guidance and that their heart lies with whatever faith and god to which they are devoted but when they are in the military their 4th POC belongs to the chain of command when it comes to following orders and adhering to the rules that are devined to establish good order and discipline.

Sir,
With all due respect, following this line of reason a committed Christian Minister should then never serve as a Chaplin - unless he feels called to be Chaplin for the military first and then a Christian Minister second. It was Jesus that said a man cannot serve two masters.

echoes · 03-02-2007, 16:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by sg1987

With all due respect, following this line of reason a committed Christian Minister should then never serve as a Chaplin - unless he feels called to be Chaplin for the military first and then a Christian Minister second.

And I must respectfully disagree. Take it from me, the church is not the only place folks can hear the "good news."

There is many a bar, garden, park etc...IMHO. Depending on how it is followed through.

Holly