Quote:
Originally Posted by akv
If I may ask sir, not knowing your background, how many Muslims have you known personally or do you interact with regularly on a substantial basis? I'm curious, FWIW, I've known Muslims from college and in the industry and my experience was pretty mixed, just like folks in general some were great people, some were not, the most reasonable of them were extremely highly educated, tolerant, and moderate in their beliefs.
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My experience is not so different from your own. There was one fellow...looked like the stereotypical American...smart, hard-working, shy around women. His wife (very rarely observed) wore a black abaya, with only her eyes showing - in San Antonio...during the summer. Then there was another one...came to an ice cream party I threw. There were a variety of toppings, including pre-made cherries jubilee sauce. He pointedly asked about the presence of any alcohol in the sauce. Smart, productive...and his wife made the best baklava I've ever tasted. And then there's another one who supervises waiters at banquets. Again, highly capable. Pleasant, always. But makes cracks about having to work on Easter because it isn't one of his holidays.
So, just as you say - the individuals are a typical mix, not so different than any other.
Having said all that, personal experiences (or, if you prefer, biases) are something we all have, and they must surely influence our views about a great many things. Thus they have some value.
However...the problem is not that the population is "good" or "bad". Rather, there seems to be a set of behaviors that are more likely among Islamic militants (or fundamentalists, or whatever we call them) than among others. We don't seem to have any viable way to discern which Islamics are militants, and which are not.
The quotes offered by Craigpo are worthy of deep reflection. We have a billion or so people mired in a miserable existence, for the most part - with the Saudi royal family as notable exceptions.
So...we seem to agree that there's nothing wrong with the people. We might be forgiven for wondering why they have all the bad outcomes we observe. Still more, these problems have lasted over the years - as the quotes from Churchill and Adams suggest. Furthermore, there seems to be little difference between areas that are militant, and those which are not. Worse, we see little advancement in such societies. Is Islam connected with these problems? It looks that way to me. Does it cause the problems, due to the effect of religious beliefs on behavior? Harder to say, but it appears possible. (YMMV)
It seems as if there isn't much (or any?) difference between the sharks and the sea they swim in, to use Pete's simile.
And now, the problem. We have two social systems, A and B, each founded on something people believe deeply. The fundamental values and standards of A and B are in conflict, as they have been for centuries.
It seems that either A or B must be changed (changed, actually, to the point of destruction), or both must change (again, this is essentially the destruction of both.) Perhaps A and B are equally good, or equally bad. Perhaps each has a high body count. That doesn't matter - no matter what name we affix, the central fact remains that the systems are in conflict.
Notice I am not saying anything about the people or the real estate. I speak only of the belief systems.
With that disclaimer firmly in mind, I see no way out of the conclusion that at least one of the belief systems will perish at some point, and must perish to regain stability. Islam could adopt freedom of worship and religion, but that seems to come near to making fundamental changes in it's very nature - hence, the destruction mentioned above. Perhaps others see alternatives that I have not.