Quote:
Originally Posted by Tuukka
No dog in this fight but;
- To my knowledge ballistic gelatin is still the most widely used and recommended testing method by terminal ballistics experts. No, not the same as shooting a human body, but the findings mirror quite closely the real life results and it is a viable testing method.
- Dr. Roberts posts on a number of websites ( LF.net, 10-8 forums, M4carbine, Tacticalforums ), where professional, vetted LE / MIL folks post as well, he enjoys a status on those forums as a very qualified expert in the field of terminal ballistics testing.
- I find it hard to believe that this forum would not benefit from his knowledge and that professional folks could not get along? I also find it hard to believe that the only "true" knowledgeable ballistics experts reside on just this forum, trauma surgeons or not.
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Tuukka:
Not enough time to respond in detail here, but consider the following.
Ballistic gelatin was once accepted as the best tissue simulant. Given the failure of it to accurately replicate the performance of the LeMas in live tissue, I would say that in my experince, it is now proven deficient. I base that on the hundreds of rounds of LeMas I have personally fired, and more than 50 live tissue comparison shootings that I have personally witnessed. I am not a trauma surgeon, but the attending physicians' feedback, to include Dr. Vail's, parallel my own.
As I have previously mentioned, as a former SF soldier, I do not care what the bullets are made of or how they work. I just care that they do. And I do not care if they are sold by LeMas, Lake City, or Remington, or made by Sierra, RBCD, or Hornady. If they work in live tissue, but not in gelatin, and I cannot explain why, should I then not use them? I want to save my soldiers' lives, and kill bad guys dead, not have a debate on what the mechanism of destruction is and how it is not accurately simulated in ballistic gel.
I believe that Dr. Roberts (DDS) is an active promoter of himself as the pre-eminent terminal ballistics expert in the country, if not the world. He is essentially tagging onto Dr. Martin Fackler's work, but without the professional training and qualifications, as Dr. Fackler was an accredited trauma surgeon and pathologist with the credibility to compare terminal ballistic performance in ballistic gelatin with his real world trauma experience. The fact that the LeMas appears to work in live tissue, but not in ballistic gelatin is a refutation of his reliance on ballistic gelatin as a preferred medium and directly threatens his prosfessional credibility. I believe that he has decided to personally and professionally attack non-believers because of this.
Dr. Roberts has not been mentioned here for some time. He has a PS.com account, and has been asked to make his comments here that pertain to Lemas and members of this forum. Yet he has never posted. Instead, he chooses to go to another forum, and make remarks personally critical of TS and I. Why do you suppose that is? Dr. Vail was ripped to shreds and his professional reputation trampled at another forum you mentioned by a bunch of fanboys with zero medical or tactical experience. He was called a quack and his professional credentials questioned by people who have no creds, apparently at the behest of GKR and his supporters. Is that what passes for scientific method and prodfessional dialogue among the other boards?
I am sure there are lots of boards and forums with trauma experts. I really doubt that there are very many firearms and tactical boards with trauma surgeons who have the experience in gunshot wounds, have seen the use of LeMas in person, and who have had the opportunity to conduct necropsies on the number of post-LeMas shot live tissue targets that the physicians here have. Just as a courtesy, tell me how many board certified trauma surgeons you have encountered out there with those creds posting their results on the other boards you have cited. While you are at it, ask Dr. Roberts how many rounds of LeMas he has fired and how many necropsies he has conducted on the live tissue targets which were shot with LeMas.
In summary, I would be more than happy to hear Dr. Roberts comments here in an area where he has professional education and training, like dentistry. I would say that he and I agree on some issues and disagree on others. I do not automatically accept ballistic gelatin as the best simulant of terminal ballistics in live tissue, I do not accept his opinion on the terminal ballistics of the LeMas ammunition (based on my personal experience and observations) and I do not make a habit out of traveling all of the various tactical forums of the internet looking for opportunities to attack Gary and his character. Note that this thread was opened in response to an unprovoked personal attack on TS and I on another board. Is that the act of a man with character?
Again, I challenge "DocGKR" to come here and present his professional explanation of why the LeMas rounds appear to function so well in destroying live tissue, but not in ballistic gelatin. Can he expalin how Dr. Vail's analysis of the same performance in live tissue is flawed?