[Sigaba]

Originally Posted by Penn

Sigaba, I want to thank whatever gene pool door you processed through, that it substituted encyclopedic recall in place of pitching skills, and meeting here you, no doubt you would have pitched for phuckin Boston....

Chef, now there's a nightmarish thought--I could throw in the Show but only for the Red Sox...

Originally Posted by Broadsword2004

(although I forget the exact source)

Broadsword2004--

There are a number of urban planners, professional associations, environmental engineers, architects, architectural engineers, traffic engineers, structural engineers, project managers, analysts, and consultants who wish your broad assessment of zoning and building codes in the Golden State were correct--because many of them would still have jobs.

Mmm...don't know if I agree with that. I understand your opinion, but I don't think that means the zoning laws have nothing to do with environmentalism.

I do not think you understand my opinion. So let me be clear. Your argument is that "California's very restrictive zoning laws" are "done in the name of environmentalism." My argument is that such is not the case.

From my experiences that include:

• the professional training I've received,
• the contracts I have written and negotiated,
• the data I've collected,
• the reports I've written,
• the presentations I've delivered,
• the projects I have managed,
• the conversations I have had with clients, stakeholders, and government officials, and
• the research I have done (and I've got a several hundred sources--Google is a wonderful thing);

I have learned the following--

1. in California, zoning and building codes are established by municipal officials, not state officials;
2. these codes are generally borrowed from neighboring municipalities (regardless of their relevance);
3. economic and political concerns trump all others; and
4. variances and conditional use permits are often granted if certain aspects of building plans are altered or adjusted.

In regards to point #3, I have direct experience in projects where municipalities with extraordinarily restrictive zoning codes refused to approve plans or grant permits or variances until technical, political, social, and cultural concerns were addressed. During my numerous conversations with my clients, environmental issues were not mentioned although they well could have been used to delay/derail the projects entirely.

Originally Posted by Broadsword2004

Remember, this is a state that was considering:

1) Banning SUVs
2) Banning the sale of flat-screen televisions
3) Centralize control over people's central air conditioning systems

What do any of these three examples have to do with zoning? You are changing your argument to say that environmentalism is important in California. Your initial argument was that California zoning laws are done in the name of environmentalism.

As for the L.A. freeway system. The 105, the 118, and ongoing expansion of the 405 between the 101 and the 10, and the California DMV's cessation of the clean air/HOV sticker program all call into question the influence of environmentalists.