[frostfire]

Good heavens! Great thread!

Originally Posted by Richard

As for myself, after considering the labyrinthine issues related to Islam and modern society, I can't see it all so simply and have chosen to (1) side with History and (2) not feed The Narrative. However, YMMV...and so it goes...

Originally Posted by orion5

Warrior-Mentor, I have spent years living in a moderate Muslim country, Malaysia, that is tri-cultural: Muslim Malays, Chinese (mostly Buddhists), and Indian (mostly Hindu). That country operates more peacefully and is more stable than most Arab states. They do have their radical elements that pop up from time to time, including al Qaeda, but those are mostly squashed when they get out of control.

I think one of the reason an explicit declaration of war on the religion of pieces cannot take place, is that we'll awaken the "Islamic giants" aka. Malaysia, Indonesia, and so on. As orion5 mentioned, right now AQ elements are being squashed in these places, but that is because they antagonize the population ie. Bali bombing, Marriott Hotel bombing, where local population were also killed in the process. If the US went all-out aggressive on Islam, the enemy of my enemy is my friend, and these places may embrace AQ.

Originally Posted by Books

I largely agree with the Sir.
Islam, as it moves through the world, changed as it interacted with other cultures. It is a war based religion, the product of a brutal culture. However, SE Asia wasn't violently converted (at least not as violently as the Middle East) and the existent cultures (Buddhist, Hindu and animist) influenced its expression, namely tolerance. True, women wear the hijab and Arabic expressions have well made their way into Bahasa, but the Malay version of Islam is dramatically different that of the Arab world.
What does this really mean though for Islam? It means that the Malay version is essentially an apostate version of Islam (according to an Arabic perspective) in that it embraces (or allows) tolerance and coexistence. Obviously this is my read of the situation, but I think it bears up under scrutiny.
Just like there are folks born into a Catholic country who aren't really Catholic, there are Muslims born in an Islamic country who are only notionally Muslim. There are more of those in Malaysia than there are elsewhere. It is a lack of their "muslimness" that has largely enabled Malaysia to connect with the Western world and develop its people and infrastructure.
That said, one of the shitheads we were training there had a picture of OBL as his screen saver. Several of the good ones though came up and confessed that they were Christian or Buddhist. . . so it goes.

Excellent analysis, Books. In the wake of 9/11, many offices in Indonesia put OBL poster, admiring him as one who dared to stick it to the great satan, without knowing much of the AQ role in the assasination of Ahmad Shah Massoud, Lion of Panjshir, a true mujaheedin against the Soviets. Over and over again, ignorance plays role in radicalization of "moderate" muslims.

Originally Posted by T-Rock

Out of curiosity, did you have to pay the “Jizya” - (aka - "Bumiputra") ?

Good catch! Yes, Islam has capacity for peace when everyone else is dhimmi. A Chinese-Malaysian back in college used to rant on and on about "Bumiputra". However, there is no jizya in Indonesia and despite 94% plus muslim population, it is "relatively peaceful" (Maluku, Ambon, and several other areas are exception). I guess Books covered the reason in his post. Islam was also the glue that formed that nationalistic sense in the resistance against the Dutch, the British, and the Japanese.