[akv]

SF-TX,

Islam is one of the greatest threats our country faces. When I see these honor killings posts, my reaction is disgust and bile for men who kill their daughters. I was raised in Texas to the same culture as many here, I believe any man who ever raises his hand to a woman is a coward, and deserves a beat down from other real men. The only possible exception here is a life threatening situation, but other than that I’m inflexible on this point. I am wholly inflexible on the issue of pedophiles. To use Col. Grossman’s analogy they are “wolves” who prey on children, I think this is just part of their DNA and cannot be remedied nor do I wish to understand it. An apologist to me is someone who says but they had bad childhoods, or we can reform them. No way, no argument no matter how eloquent will sway me here. Fry them, hang them from a tall tree, or slide them down a razor blade into a tank with a Great White and put it on pay per-view, with proceeds to go to the victims, I just don’t care.

Islam, a hot topic on this BB, is not so simple, and I am constantly amazed by the breadth and intelligence of the folks here. As a civilian I try to remain mindful of the fact there might be ugly facets of Islam only the men in our military who confront terror have seen. If one reads back through posts on this site there are QP’s and and civilians alike who eloquently make the case that Islam like any other religion is an operating system, based on faith, and thus vulnerable to being used as crutch for immoral actions.

As Sigaba astutely surmised I’m asking the question should I simply think of Islam the way I do of pedophiles? Now to your direct question.

Originally Posted by SF TX

Then perhaps AKV should provide more information supporting the idea that honor killings are a result of location and culture rather than religion. On the other hand, there is ample information to suggest honor killings are sanctioned by Islamic law.

First, to start I agree some of these verses from the Koran, etc. are quite horrid. You can find scripture to support any argument. Examples of Islamic scripture which decry violence towards women and support my is it cultural question on this topic can already be found here, under posts by Richard. IMHO one of the brightest, most balanced, and respected members of this forum, and a soldier and educator who has frankly lived stuff civilians read about. If as he posted female infanticide and barbarism towards women existed in this part of the world prior to Mohammed, how can you pin this on Islam instead of culture?

http://www.pbs.org/muhammad/ma_women.shtml

Or, if instead you believe the mandate for honor killings derives from scripture from the Koran, how do honor killings reconcile with the following verses?

Not only did the Koran outlaw female infanticide, which was widely practiced in Arabia at the time of the prophet Muhammed, it made it an issue to be especially addressed on Judgment Day:

"And when the girl-child buried alive is asked for what sin she was killed(Koran 81:8-9)"

Or even more generally,

[I]"Whosoever kills even one human being, other than for man slaughter or tyranny on earth, it would be as if they had killed all of humanity. And whosoever saves even one human life, it will be as if they have saved all of humankind (Koran 5:32)"

These quotes are right out of the Koran, which is supposedly inviolable for Muslims right? They are however like any scripture vulnerable to moral weakness and manipulation by evil men. I wonder if there was a German soldier in 1943 reflecting on the Golden Rule as he loaded little Jewish girls onto trains knowing it was a one way trip, as much as I wonder does an Islamic suicide bomber think of either of the above verses when he attacks a school full of innocent children?

Second, let’s set religion aside and look at geography. T-Rock cites Mr. Mirza’s arguments for honor killings being part of Islam in this very thread, but how should this be interpreted since from that very same piece,

Originally Posted by T-Rock

(quoting Mirza)

Family honor is one of the core values of Arab society. Anything from speaking with an unrelated man, to rumored pre-marital loss of virginity, to an extra-marital affair, refuses forced marriages; marry according to their will; or even women and girls who have been raped—can stain or destroy the family honor. Therefore, family members (parents, brothers, or sisters) kill the victim in order to remove the stain or maintain, and protect the honor of the family. Killers are given light sentences, sometimes with little or no jail time at all. The killers mainly defend their act of murder by referring to the Koran and Islam.

And read further on,

Honor killings happen only to some designated Muslim nations such as Saudi Arabia, Jordan, Syria, Yemen, Lebanon, Egypt, Sudan, the Gaza strip and the West Bank (Palestine), Jordan, Pakistan, Indonesia, Malaysia, Nigeria, Somalia, Turkey, Iran and some other south and central Asian countries. Bangladesh though a Muslim majority country—regular pattern of honor killings never happened as of today.

What is the least common denominator here? The culture in these parts of the world place lower value on life in general, particularly females. By my read Mirza puts a lot of this stuff at the feet of Arab culture, hiding behind Islam. A lot of the countries on this list are dominated by Arab culture, but not all Arabs are Muslims, and we have documented instances of honor killings from this region by folks from other religions. Several of these countries aren’t Arab, so is it Islam? No, there are clearly verses from the Koran which decry this sort of activity. I don’t know much about Bangladesh but if Mirza is credible, they are Muslims who don’t do this. Perhaps they find other excuses to kill their women. The least common denominator here seems women are treated with barbarism in the culture of Third World nations regardless of religion.

Third, My experience with the Druze is limited. A good friend of mine is an IDF vet, who told me they have their own units who served with honor in Israel’s wars with the Arabs.

Originally Posted by SF-TX

Ms Fares knew that parading in her red two-piece could be considered controversial in the Druze community, whose religion is an offshoot of Islam.

Their faith seems to incorporate beliefs from several religions. They don’t pray in Mosques, they believe in reincarnation, and evolution theory, but also practice monogamy. While they respect the Koran, their religious book is the Kitab al Hikma, they seem to be their own faith. I don’t think labeling them as a mere offshoot of Islam is any more accurate than labeling Christianity to be a mere offshoot of Judaism. Yet, they still have honor killings, and they aren’t Muslims so what is the least common denominator here?

So, respectfully, if these honor killings took place here before Mohammed, if there are clear verses in the Koran against this sort of thing, if folks from other religions in this region also commit honor killings, and finally if there are Muslims who don't do this, how is my question, is it possible this is regional culture instead of Islam taking too much for granted?