[The Reaper]

Originally Posted by Dozer523

Don't confuse these REOs with the DARE officers. In my experience the REOs go massively "Sheepdog" fast.

I have no idea what a REO is. I would agree with the previous comments that the School Resource Officers I have interacted with (five of them) seem to be about one step above an armed security guard. In some active shooter cases, the SROs have not engaged, but have called in the incident and held positions outside. That strikes me as pretty much the definition of sheep.

Originally Posted by Dozer523

Oh yeah, that confusion thing, fog of war etc. . . And you think a non-professional guy with a gun is going to have the whatever it is (since training doesn't seem to count) to do all this. What exactly happens when you pull your Glock from your ankle holster? Is it sort of like when the Green Lantern turns his ring?

Your continued characterizations and ad hominem attacks on those who would choose to protect themselves reflect a weak argument and prejudice. I have opted to take responsibility for protecting my family. To do that legally, I have complied with the law and received a permit. I am resentful of being lumped in with Barney Fife as you seem to believe all CCW holders are. I do not flash my gun, threaten people, keep my one bullet in my pocket, have NDs, leave my weapon in the restroom, drop it on the floor, shoot innocents,or any of the other cartoonish stereotypes you are attempting to portray. The vast majority of other CCW holders are likewise competent, especially in this area. The argument and attacks that you are making are right out of the anti-gunners' playbooks, attempting to make gun owners and CCW holders look like some sort of clownish buffoons. You seem to be opposed to the idea of citizens defending themselves. Did you also hop on the bandwagon when CCW was passed, concerned about shootouts at traffic lights and "Dodge City" incidents? What happened to those arguments? Those willing and able to be trained and licensed to safely carry a firearm should not be prevented from carrying it anywhere, as far as I am concerned. Those who cannot or who will not do so should not be permitted to. Simple.

A large part of the advantage of a viable licensing and CCW program is that like the FFDO, you never know when the door your force open may be your last. Not everyone has to be carrying. Those unwilling or unable to carry the burden do not have to. Those who are willing could serve as a deterrent to those who would invade our schools with ill-intent. I think you are overconfident in the ability of a teacher armed with a bat to defeat a determined individual with a firearm. Should you wish to try that out, I have a wiffle bat and some Sims we can test your theory with. My experience leads me to believe that you will lose. I also believe that the average teacher would do even more poorly against a shooter, even with a bat. OTOH, I suspect that my wife could probably hold a door against an armed intruder for an hour or two with a firearm.

Originally Posted by Dozer523

Thank goodness all the CC dudes didn't head to the Library! Imagine some untrained dude crashing the door and seeing someone kneeling over a bloody body. EU! Sorry. . .

Again, you attempt to paint CCW holders with a broad brush as incompetent, uneducated slobs. I think that most of us who have gotten a CCW understand that when LE arrives, you need to be identifying yourself, non-threatening, and the weapon needs to be secured. Is this this constant mischaracterization the sole basis for your arguments?

Originally Posted by Dozer523

What if there was some better controlled access to the campus or some better controlled access to weapons? (Here we GO!) From your description, good guys were there and were effective with a bum rush. Why do you think cops like dogs? Now there is an idea I can support give the REO's dogs. Kids love dogs! Dog love kids.l

Well, I guess we could make school access look more like the airport, but I do not think most people will go for that. Controlled access to my weapon is in my holster. Bum rush? By a bunch of kids against an armed intruder? Certainly an option, if no other recourse exists. I prefer that an armed adult intervene before it comes to that. BTW, a police working dog is not a good choice in a school environment.

Originally Posted by Dozer523

Per, thank you for that and please don't take my response as disrespect. It is not -- . All the arguements against the present system point to particular cases, Where the plan was unable to work be cause the POS defeated the defense. Everyone here has to know that there is no static defense that cannot be overcome with good planning, prep, equipment. That's why Target Analysis is so much fun! If the defense plan has time to work (don't do it. . . keep reading.) it will. If the POS gains the initiative and there is not time then we have an entirely different situation and we fall back on the old Infantry Center's School solution, "DOTS, Depends On The Situation".

Hide, lock the door, and wait a half hour or more for armed response or or for the shooter to run out of ammo is no real plan, as far as I am concerned. Do we advocate that for fires as well? Hide, lockdown, and wait for the firemen? The odds of running into an armed teacher, administrator, or parent with a CCW presents another risk to any nutjob planning a hit at his school. That is currently the policy on airplanes, BTW, and it seems to be working.

Originally Posted by Dozer523

Wrong. Once YOUR kids show up on campus they are MY kids. If you do not like that you can try to find a private school that agrees with your position on weapons on campus -- good luck. Home Schooling might be another option.

I disagree. My kids do not lose their identy because you are their teacher, and I do not abrogate my parental responsibility either. Ultimately, I am responsible for the security of my kids, regardless of where they are or what your title might be. And I guess I will be illegal when I visit the campus, because I care about them, and your counterparts, and don't believe a radio, or a baseball bat against a gun are fair fights. I believe that I am responsible for my actions, that I can be trusted to know when and where an armed response is appropriate, that the police cannot be everywhere at once, or guarantee anyone's security, that there are bad people out there in this world who mean to harm the innocent, that there are other good people carrying of the same mindset and skills as I, and that ultimately, we have to do what we can to protect the sheep. If they want to initiate a training and licensing program, fine. If not, some will do what they believe is right, regardless.

OT, amigo, but if I could get a voucher to cover the taxes that I pay to educate my kids (and the kids of those who do not pay taxes), they would be in a private school already, and out of the warehouse for their kids that many people seem to use the public schools for.

Originally Posted by Dozer523

The Constitution is a much bigger document then you might imagine.Respectfully,Per Backatchoo, Dozer

I agree on that one. Please, show me where the Constitution prohibits armed adults from protecting innocnets and children, wherever they might be. You might want to refresh your Constitutional knowledge with a reread focusing on the 2nd and 10th Amendments, as well as the writings of the Founding Fathers (many of whom carried a weapon on a daily basis) and the Federalist Papers. Take a look at "More Guns, Less Crime", by John Lott, while you are at it.

Originally Posted by Dozer523

Man I wish I could do that cool multi-post thingie you google-fu-ians do

Should be easy for a man with your skills and knowledge.

Have a nice day.

TR