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P36 · 06-17-2004, 22:34

MG Fast actually has a pretty decent rep in the community.
The problem we have with this whole scandal is that we are only hearing bits and pieces via the media. What the MPs did was wrong. IF someone on the MI side told them to treat the prisoners that way, then they were wrong as well. It will come out in the investigation, which is not complete.

MI does not control prisoners, MPS do. MPs are responsible to control and safeguard their prisoners IAW the Law of War.
Think of an EPW camp as a library, the internees as books and the MPs as the librarian. MI, well, we just check books out now and then to read them a bit and return them, preferably in the same condition as when we checked 'em out. MI is responsible to treat EPWs and CIs IAW the Law of War, just as the MPs are.

The Abu Ghraib deal looks plainly to be a failure in training (they were a reserve unit), leadership and oversight and EXPERIENCE.

How many of you SF guys have met truly experienced/mature MI folks? Are they the majority or are most of them young, wet behind the ears SPC/SGTs?

IF some interrogator gave bad advice or encouragement, or indeed participated, then he/she was wrong. But the MPS, if they were trained, (which, being reservists, appears they were not) would have known that they should and could have told the MI folks to pound sand.

I think our Army is too small, causing us to rely upon people/units who are unprepared and unfit for the job. That is what I believe it comes down to.

Has anyone heard of the Stanford study on how the worst comes out of people who are put into guard/prisoner roles? Very interesting and it shows that there must be TIGHT control and plenty of oversight on prison ops.

Edited to add that I don't mean to denigrate our reserve or NG people, they are out there sacrificing and dying alongside the AD. These days, many of the units likely have gained much experience, but in general, the reserves were not trained well. They couldn't be. One weekend a month doesn't cut it. We all know how much time it takes to prepare a simple class, let alone an FTX. How could a reserve unit be trained to even close to the same standard?

Ok, that said, the leadership, from that general on down to the Squad leader, should have grabbed their FMS/ARs/SOPs (if they had SOPS) and done at least what I did in 15 minutes. I was listening to the hullabaloo about "MI told us to do this and they were in charge," and since that did not jive with what I know about how we operate, I decided to read up on what the MPs responsibility is in regard to EPW operations. A one hour training session at Joe's Bar and Grill would have given the soldiers involved enough knowledge to know that they were breaking some very major laws. Perhaps they did all that and more and those involved were simply the bad apples that exists within every unit. I hope so. But the general sure doesn't set a stellar example, does she?

06-17-2004, 22:34	#30
P36 Guerrilla Join Date: Jan 2004 Posts: 202	MG Fast actually has a pretty decent rep in the community. The problem we have with this whole scandal is that we are only hearing bits and pieces via the media. What the MPs did was wrong. IF someone on the MI side told them to treat the prisoners that way, then they were wrong as well. It will come out in the investigation, which is not complete. MI does not control prisoners, MPS do. MPs are responsible to control and safeguard their prisoners IAW the Law of War. Think of an EPW camp as a library, the internees as books and the MPs as the librarian. MI, well, we just check books out now and then to read them a bit and return them, preferably in the same condition as when we checked 'em out. MI is responsible to treat EPWs and CIs IAW the Law of War, just as the MPs are. The Abu Ghraib deal looks plainly to be a failure in training (they were a reserve unit), leadership and oversight and EXPERIENCE. How many of you SF guys have met truly experienced/mature MI folks? Are they the majority or are most of them young, wet behind the ears SPC/SGTs? IF some interrogator gave bad advice or encouragement, or indeed participated, then he/she was wrong. But the MPS, if they were trained, (which, being reservists, appears they were not) would have known that they should and could have told the MI folks to pound sand. I think our Army is too small, causing us to rely upon people/units who are unprepared and unfit for the job. That is what I believe it comes down to. Has anyone heard of the Stanford study on how the worst comes out of people who are put into guard/prisoner roles? Very interesting and it shows that there must be TIGHT control and plenty of oversight on prison ops. Edited to add that I don't mean to denigrate our reserve or NG people, they are out there sacrificing and dying alongside the AD. These days, many of the units likely have gained much experience, but in general, the reserves were not trained well. They couldn't be. One weekend a month doesn't cut it. We all know how much time it takes to prepare a simple class, let alone an FTX. How could a reserve unit be trained to even close to the same standard? Ok, that said, the leadership, from that general on down to the Squad leader, should have grabbed their FMS/ARs/SOPs (if they had SOPS) and done at least what I did in 15 minutes. I was listening to the hullabaloo about "MI told us to do this and they were in charge," and since that did not jive with what I know about how we operate, I decided to read up on what the MPs responsibility is in regard to EPW operations. A one hour training session at Joe's Bar and Grill would have given the soldiers involved enough knowledge to know that they were breaking some very major laws. Perhaps they did all that and more and those involved were simply the bad apples that exists within every unit. I hope so. But the general sure doesn't set a stellar example, does she? __________________ Someday, we'll look back on this, laugh nervously and change the subject. Last edited by P36; 06-18-2004 at 09:09.
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