[JGarcia]

Originally Posted by Gene Econ

I work with Regulars and they send guys to Benning for the sniper competition but not Little Rock. I am not sure you guys would accept them as the Wilson matches are for Guard only (?). It wouldn't matter as Regular outfits really aren't interested. A different culture.

The Sniper "training exercise" (competition) the NGMTC runs is called the ISSTE or Inter Service Sniper Training Exercise, and regulars do participate. This year a team from 5th Group won, I believe.

When we say "Wilson Matches" down here, that also includes Armed Forces Skill at Arms" or AFSAM which is open to all active and reserve from US and Allied Forces. Here is a link to 2008 AFSAM participants: http://www.arguard.org/mtu/Documents...TER_Report.rtf
You will notice the list includes teams from active component units (USMC and Allied Nations).

By "Regular Outfits" do you mean active duty line units or just active duty in general? It seems to me that just the Active Duty Army that won't compete (AMU?) I suspect they fear having some difficulty.

Originally Posted by Gene Econ

So far I haven't been impressed with the DM courses run by the AMU but don't know what the Guard does. I don't think the AMU courses prepare guys for combat and I know they don't give them much in terms of perfecting marksmanship skills.

Our course is 15 days, I would be happy to send you any of our course materials, ppt., training schedules, etc., if you will reciprocate? We have a class size in the 15 to 20 something students and typically about the same number of instructors and assistant instructors. Students get a great deal of one on one coaching. We also pair up the students; each pair has a spotting scope with tripod and data books. We really hammer them on the data books, hard. Each shot, and the conditions for each shot must be recorded, sight pictures drawn, etc.,

Our first week is all iron sights. First off is a "show us what you can do zero” and 300 and in KD qualification. Most scores are no where near the required expert score… go figure. Afterwards we have a “get your head screwed on straight” fundamentals class – which attempts to undo what they think they know. That is followed with a how to zero properly class, a zero 101 on the why’s, how’s and what for’s of zeroing. Then we pair them up & issue spotting scopes and ACOG's.

Next day is 25M zero, 300 and in Qual …with very different results. The rest of the week includes KD zero KD Practical Exercises, KD Qual, and many classes. Course mid point is a full day of range E classes and Practical Exercises, then UKD qual iron sights out to 600, then back to KD for ACOG zero, ACOG PE’s and ACOG KD qual, then back to UKD for Practical Exercises, then Range E test and UKD qual out to 600.

That's basically it. There is a great deal of coaching going on and I didn't mention all of the classroom time, which seems more important to the students as the training progresses, they have more questions. We don’t leave the range or classroom for chow, they bring it with them and eat when they can; typically in the pits during lulls moving from one firing line to the next. They get a great deal of trigger time which is closely watched, typically there is an instructor with a spotting scope/tripod watching trace and an A/I watching the body, the muzzle, etc.,

Originally Posted by Gene Econ

Ask the guys there at Little Rock why they will not allow a sniper team to compete in the Sniper matches unless they are B-4 qualified.

I will ask when we go back to work on Monday, but I would suspect they will say because they want to get more people to attend our Sniper school which awards the B-4 identifier. Sniper cadre puts on ISSTE, I can give you a POC via PM if you wish.

Originally Posted by Gene Econ

The guys who shoot High Power and are top of the line have trained their finger to move when their eyes have seen the degree of perfection they know is needed for success. And they move the trigger without moving the barrel.

Concur. As you know that comes with practice, practice which most Soldiers will seldom get.

Originally Posted by Gene Econ

I wonder exactly what the Army expects out of guys shooting carbines, issued ball, and poor optics (ACOGs).

I am sure you have seen various forms of the “special purpose rifle” or DM rifle, etc., but those are weapons that 90% of line squads are never going to have. A unit could build something that is a little better than an M4. If they used the M16 full auto trigger, an M16A4 upper, an ACOG with appropriate reticle, and maybe if they were lucky they could get Battalion to splurge on some free floating handguards. Issue the Mk 262 round to the DM’s; they could do well with such a set up. This requires no fancy pants arms room work, just a competent armorer and willing S4 and CO.

Originally Posted by Gene Econ

So far I haven't heard of a DM blasting someone at ranges past about 200 meters yet the courses seem to emphasize trying to make a worn out carbine and ball ammo function efficiently at 550 meters instead of what a DM will really do which is maneuver with his Squad and do his best to shoot folks he can identify as enemy.

I don’t know of any real life DM stories either. We use the M16A4 for the course, the students routinely hit targets with at 550 to 600 with ball ammo, it is not extraordinarily difficult for any of them. Some students are better than others, some will get < 5 of 10 at 600, some more, I think the average is about 6 of 10 at 600m. Next course (an MTT) we will be teaching using the M14 at the request of the unit. How the DM is used depends on whether or not the leadership is familiar with the role and ability of the DM.

Originally Posted by Gene Econ

My intent for the DM courses I run is to prepare them to fill in Sniper slots and sorry guys but it happens -- a-lot.

While that is not our intent it certainly happens a lot. Units are beginning to send new potential snipers to our class first and then to sniper school, sometimes back to back. We had a kid last class from the GA Guard, this 19 year old kid was a natural, one day towards then end of course during a lull in Practical Exercises, the kid was in the prone at the UKD range, there is a steel silhouette set up at 700M, and this kid was just pegging it, shot after shot, this was under less than ideal conditions, wind, overcast, light rain, sparse fog, M16A4, 855 green tip, unsupported. Anyhow he is going onto sniper school next course. I think our course will definitely improve a Soldiers chance of success at sniper school. It certainly cannot hurt.

Originally Posted by Gene Econ

You have a unique opportunity to really become a fine rifleman or pistolero at Little Rock. They have the resources and the guys with the experience that will allow you to move to the 'next level'. 99.99% of us never had that opportunity and if you really enjoy marksmanship -- take advantage of what Little Rock can offer you.

I recognize that, believe me I do. SFC W. has been taking time with me and mentoring me some. I hope to do as well as he has, he has forgotten more about shooting than most will ever know, and has the X wives to prove it. It is a great group of guys and they really know what they are talking about, unfortunately they don’t get asked their opinion when it comes to writing marksmanship and SDM doctrine, as you know things would be different. Of the top marksmen teaching down here, most are not Combat Arms guys, but supply, band, etc., and they can really shoot circles around people. We also have a high power shooter that recently ETS’d from AMU, he told me that our SDM course is much better than what AMU offers, but he is another one that I spend time with, picking his brain and having him watch and coach me.

Feel free to drop in, you will be well received.