[swatsurgeon]

Odd Job,

I am interested in that, myself. But the problem is (in my opinion) that unless the ammunition is a consistently-poor performer (such as the Glaser for example), statistical methods aimed at arriving at a conclusion about real-life effectiveness of ammunition (using post-mortem or even hospital data) are confounded by the very thing that sets these tissue tests apart from gel tests: the fact that the human body is not a homogenous medium and the fact that humans are not shot under controlled conditions such as gel or even these pigs to an extent. I suppose the closest we could get to establishing whether ammunition is a 'lemon' or not, is by trying to find a large sample of live victims in which that ammunition can be positively identified. But then we might end up with only things like Glasers. That is one of the things the gel-testers have in their favour: they have no problem with comparing ammunition because of the consistency of their medium and their shooting conditions. {Finally, you see the very point being discussed from the perspective and commentary originally offered. }





I would be interested in that too. But here is a thought: I am sure you will agree with me that a common 'feature' of human gunshot wounds today is that no two gunshot wounds are alike. To develop a medium that can simulate this effect must surely result in a full circle back to inconsistencies in the scientific testing/results? If this was not the case, we would surely have arrived at the definitive caliber to carry by now, even when comparing the same ammunition. {Again, the correct deduction, there is no one test medium that will reveal ALL wounds to the human body. I do have more that 35 retrieved Gold Dots from shootings to all areas of the body. Some that hit only skin and soft tisue with penetration less than 6 inches, no clothing and no bones hit; shot from 5 yards (9mm and .40) from a weapon barrel length of 4.25 inches. Gel tests reveal deeper penetration as well as "reliable" expansion; this was not the case in some of these patients. I challenge Dr. Roberts or anyone else to demonstrate close to 100% correlation of gel tests to human hits. Where is the deeper penetration? This is simply an example of the biased claims of those that promote ballistic gel as the sure answer to wound ballistic correlation in the human body. Atleast I can see in the human body and question ballistic dogma with cases such as mentioned. The hog shots reveal alot, not everything...they are not human bodies but atleast I can better 'infer' and judge the incapacitation potential better than a gel hit.}



As far as other, as you claim, similiar bullets to LeMas, where are they with their live tissue data. I would be happy to dissect an animal shot with them as well as LeMas and lets see what the live tissue looks like. The point is that the handgun rounds are different, not replicated by any other manufacturer I am aware of and the rifle rounds haven't yet been replicated in a reliable way that has this type of wound ballistics information (in the 2 calibers I witnessed with LeMas, the .223 and .308) Are they armor piercing and can still demonstrate the terminal ballistics I described? If they can , great. The entire thread is based on an ammunition that claims to have a greater wounding potential and be armor defeating, both handgun and rifle rounds and that when they are fired into gel (at least the 9mm) that there is NO correlation to the wounding in live tissue. I am getting tired of sounding like a broken record but no new arguments against my observations have been brought forth: no other live tissue data and no explanation of results that I witnessed with such 'failures' in gel.
ss

I forgot to add: I have never cared for a patient hit with a 'varmit' round and when I asked 30 of my colleagues around the country in major trauma centers, either have they. We see mostly handgun related injuries and <10% rifle injuries. I have no first hand knowledge about the wound ballistics of these rounds. I chose the Gold Dots as an example because they are so common with LE...I have many more types of rounds that I could discuss