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02-23-2006, 15:52

Bob1984, I agree.

Warning, rant follows...

Europe has problems with identification, economic outlook, immigration, misrepresentation of mainstream news (terrorist transports, terrorist detainment centers, relationships with Iran, Sudan, Zimbabwe, Kyoto come to mind). The problem is not that people in general hate America, it's that they don't understand what you're up to in a war seemingly ill-defined, and the foundations and consequences of freedom, and how you've chosen a slightly different path.

Europe is trying to convince itself that it is on the right path and politicos do that partly by saying what they are not, combined with what they want to be ("We want to be a counter-weight for the US on some issues. We do it because we're different. We want to be better than the US. We're not there yet and our system hasn't proven its worth yet, but if we say it enough times, maybe we will be.")

What Europe needs to do is to restructure its institutions, get grass root identification on a few set principles, not of specific ideology, but of human liberty and dignity (and that does not mean social security and right to internet for everyone - that's a state level value). In part, the EU constitution was an attempt to position the foundation for unity on top of the people. There is no element of natural movement that would later unite the people. The constitution should have acknowledged the "invisible hand"'s (used in a wide sense) peculiarities for Europe. What you get otherwise is an increasing alienation between elements of society.

Earlier I thought Europe was not too far behind USA economically, just reasonably. Reading statistics last week: the gap is tremendous. Some groups are already starting to raise awareness and advocate changes. It must change.

I foresee a Europe either with liberties cut much further and breaking itself down, with a strong organized criminal sector, or a Europe slowly adapting, uniting, and opening up again, or, a relative demise that gets broken only when something truly horrifying happens.

I believe in a mix of the last two, held back by politicos. (EDITed to add: Or all three... mostly because of the politicos and organized crime)

Martin

02-23-2006, 15:52	#4
Martin Guest Posts: n/a	Bob1984, I agree. Warning, rant follows... Europe has problems with identification, economic outlook, immigration, misrepresentation of mainstream news (terrorist transports, terrorist detainment centers, relationships with Iran, Sudan, Zimbabwe, Kyoto come to mind). The problem is not that people in general hate America, it's that they don't understand what you're up to in a war seemingly ill-defined, and the foundations and consequences of freedom, and how you've chosen a slightly different path. Europe is trying to convince itself that it is on the right path and politicos do that partly by saying what they are not, combined with what they want to be ("We want to be a counter-weight for the US on some issues. We do it because we're different. We want to be better than the US. We're not there yet and our system hasn't proven its worth yet, but if we say it enough times, maybe we will be.") What Europe needs to do is to restructure its institutions, get grass root identification on a few set principles, not of specific ideology, but of human liberty and dignity (and that does not mean social security and right to internet for everyone - that's a state level value). In part, the EU constitution was an attempt to position the foundation for unity on top of the people. There is no element of natural movement that would later unite the people. The constitution should have acknowledged the "invisible hand"'s (used in a wide sense) peculiarities for Europe. What you get otherwise is an increasing alienation between elements of society. Earlier I thought Europe was not too far behind USA economically, just reasonably. Reading statistics last week: the gap is tremendous. Some groups are already starting to raise awareness and advocate changes. It must change. I foresee a Europe either with liberties cut much further and breaking itself down, with a strong organized criminal sector, or a Europe slowly adapting, uniting, and opening up again, or, a relative demise that gets broken only when something truly horrifying happens. I believe in a mix of the last two, held back by politicos. (EDITed to add: Or all three... mostly because of the politicos and organized crime) Martin Last edited by Martin; 02-23-2006 at 16:14.