Combat Diver
 

Here's a question that I've had bouncing around in my knoggin for awhile.

Why don't all SF go through the Combat Diver program going through the pipeline. I know SEALs and Recon do it for their mission. But PJs and CCTs go through the program as part of their training.

Is it because of number of avalible slots? Which group you're going to be assinged to?

Just courious.

First Infantry and now you're comparing Special Forces to PJ's? We must be failing to communicate here!

Before I (or anyone else) answers your question tell me what PJ’s and CCT primary missions are….. Same goes for SEALS. Then I’ll be more than happy to answer your questions…..

Team Sergeant

OK.....Primary missions.

SEALs....playing beach vollyball, having good looking hair, clearing UW obstacles/mines, beach recon for landings, infiltration to take out bad guys.

Recon....clearing UW obstacles/mines, recon for beach landings for which ever Marine Division they're assinged to (at least that's what I was told by an old roommate of mine), having good looking hair (if any), taking out the bad guys thing.

CCTs....to get in by any way to set up airfields and provide CAS, having that good looking hair thing too.

PJs....having REALLY good looking hair, going to EVERY gentelmens club in the area, getting REALLY good places to sleep while deployed, getting REALLY good food while deployed, having lots and lots of care packages sent to them while they're deployed and going to the PX/AFFES every 2 hours to get milk to wash down all the cookies and brownies that were sent in the care packages, watching loads and loads of first run movies while on deployment, having REALLY good looking hair, (wait I already said that), then there's the thing about going in and getting downed pilots by whatever means necessary, (when they're not on crew rest).

TS...trust me. I was by NO means comparing SF to PJs, (although you know I do have a personal bias for PJs ;) ).

******Just an example here******
Just was wondering if a situation were required that the only way into an AO was by UW and there were say, 3 teams/ODAs with the same group and just a few from each team were Combat Diver qualed. Are those divers then pulled from thier respected teams to make up that team/ODA?

When was the last time a team was inserted by SCUBA?

SCUBA is not a primary skill.

If everything that SF can and may do is included in the pipeline we would never have any SF Qualified graduates.

SEALS belong in the water. :D

Finally, yes occasionally composite teams are formed for special missions.

1. UWO is not a mission in and of itself.

2. It is one of several infiltration techniques, and has not been used much lately.

3. There has been so little requirement for it that a few years ago, we went down to one UWO trained ODA per Battalion.

4. Not everyone in SF can swim well enough to be CDQC qualified. Look at the numbers of PJs. They are less than 10% of the number of SF personnel. If we lost the 50% (or likely more) SF personnel who do not swim well enough to be CDQ, who were otherwise qualified, we would be killing ourselves to meet a requirement which is just aniother way to get to the target and start the real mission. As far as that goes, if we required all SF personnel to make it through the gates of Infantry, Airborne, Ranger, SFQC, Language, SERE, MFF, CDQC, Dive Supe, DMT, six SF MOSes, SFARTAEC, SOTIC, etc., we could spend 5 years in qualification training and wash out 90% of all SF personnel.

5. The key is deciding what skills are critical for everyone to have, what are essential to have someone on each team qualified in, and what a few teams (or people) per battalion need to know.

TR

TR: Speak of a double whammy. Apparently we think on the same frequency. :lifter

Recon
 

Were you talking about the Marine Force Recon companies or the Recon Battalions? Even in the Marines the Recon units have different missions, training requirements and schooling requirements.

Of course I'm assuming they haven't done away with them since the last time we hung out together.

Pete

Pete....Marine Force is who(m) I was refering to.


TR & QRQ.....Thank you for clearing that up.

I had a feeling that it might have something to do with the amount of training (time wise), but the numbers never crossed my mind.

Thanks.

Not only initial training, but currency training would kill you. I wasn't on an MFF or Dive team, but I'm sure the guys here that were can tell you how often they had to pass up team training in the woods or on a range because they had to go do an MFF or dive requal for a week or so. And that is with only one of those specialties. When you have to maintain proficiency in diving, MFF, trauma care and technical climbing, I don't know how PJs get any time to train anything else.

I agree with both you and TR on this! That said, it seems to me just a few years ago there wass a move to have both SF and the Rangers to turn in all rebreathers and other SCUBA gear and give the missions that required UW work over to the SEALs. As I recall some in the 2nd Rangers did turn in their gear.

I for one would hate to see this happen for many reasons. Also, I can see the use of this equipment for other missions not involving inflirt. Bridges and Dams come to mind in DA type actions. :munchin

Old Diver Passing, TAPS
 

I should have posted the link to James Kennedy here for those who would appreciate the heritage of the early guys.

http://www.denverpost.com/obituaries/ci_13612910

Scuba and Sf...
 

It's been posted the imphasis on Scuba need be deimphasized.
I was the guy that pushed to get the WIC course.
Insertions by Scuba are no longer tenable for those outside the Navy as the launch sites are necessarily too close to the modern coastal watches and equipment (within 3 klicks of a shore line). Seals are the only ones to be able to do this with the small subs. (team delivery systems). I put our money on Surface swims, Kayaks, and Rubber boats. for a longer range insert with more equipment.

The Scuba need can still be necessary for deep Inland DA hits as mentioned above.
Thou they think they may, I don't think they'll go as deep as we.
That does not necessitate the maintenance of three teams per battalion.

SCUBA is not only an infiltration technique.

SCUBA (air, O2, mixed gas) is an additional skill which has many other applications.

Commitments of the limited dedicated UWO assets at any given time - combined with time, distance, transportation, weather, mission constraints - provide the arguments for having UWO qualified personnel/teams available in-theater when and wherever necessary.

USN - like the USAF - provide transportation for SO teams as directed by JCS. We used PBRs, CRCs, subs (SS and SSN/SSBN) and SDVs - along with other surface craft and USN RWAC. A taxi is a taxi no matter who's driving the damn thing.

PJ SCUBA training - unless they later manage a slot to the CDQC - is a basic introductory diving course at Panama City and nothing like the CDQC.

CD qualification is a time intensive and expensive skill to attain and maintain, and not everyone has the aptitude for it.

Putting one's proverbial eggs in a single basket makes no sense - especially within the SO community.

Richard's $.02 :munchin

SCUBA has been used for CA in the past. In Panama we went on CA MTTs to cut channeks through reefs to make access to fishing grounds for coastal villages.

In the Gatun recreational area we cut all underwater trees to a depth of 10 feet. I blew a lot of demo but never in anger.

In Thailand we recovered two Royal Lao T-28s - one in the Mekong near Savanaket and another in an inland lake NE of Vientienne.

Your forgot body recovery and de-mining ops - never liked those. :(

Richard