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'Green' Technologies - Help or Hindrance?

I was listening to a report today about one of the unintended consequences of technological advances in energy conservation.

Many cities have gone to a new type of bulb in their traffic lights which use 90% less electricity and last quite a bit longer than the older bulbs.

However - now that winter is here - they have discovered that the new bulbs do not produce the heat which used to melt the snow/ice on the traffic signals and kept them visible to drivers. The accumulation of snow/ice which now masks the traffic signals has led to an increase in traffic accidents...and the cities are uncertain as to what to do about it all.

And so it goes...;)

Richard's $.02 :munchin

So new we are going to have to eat a frog to get the fly....:D

If I was a bright engineer at a traffic light manufacturer I would be hard at work on a heated (solar + storage) traffic signal housing.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sten (Post 302576)

"One of the great paradine for being green" (as quoted by a prominent frog called Kermit)

In this instance, you will spend more than the fix is worth,, but then that is the basis for most green initiatives,,

Al Bore can't generate money for his 10 billion dollar junk green fund,, if we don't spend it...

99% of the green inventions are more expensive that the OLD technology they replace,, but the left doesn't care,, it's GREEN...

Maybe that's why in 1973, they call it Soylent Green???

:mad:

I am seriously considering making a donation to the Green candidates in the next election.

If we are concerned about the fractures within the Republican Party, perhaps we should give the Dims an equivalent issue to deal with.

Just a thought.

TR

'Green' technologies: solutions in search of a problem.

Article from probably the same report you heard today.

http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/...N56pwD9CK1U9G0

what a scam
"green" is the new "GT"

I remember back in the 80's EVERYTHING had "GT" tagged onto it... you could sell a forty pound turd if you stuck a shiny badge on that bastard that said "GT"

Hell I even saw "GT" sunglasses

GT sunglasses

now everything is "green"
green light bulbs,
green recycled paper,
green incandescent light bulbs
green recycled incandescent paper light bulbs
whatever

hell.... at work i even have to put all of my work in a green folder
I hate green. I dont even like Kermit the Frog any more

Now we find out alGore lied to us about 'ice'...
...say it aint so al, say it aint so.
In Copenhagen no less... isnt there enough scandal over this man-made-global-warming business?

FUCK

I saw a clip on the "Daily Show" (dont laugh, its no worse than the real news) showing clips of the hypocrites at the global warming summit showing up in individual limousines.
Over 1200 limousines and 140 private jets.
go figure... I hate the planet because I use good light bulbs but these statistic bending, self important, lying cocksuckers show up at a "save the planet" rally in a convoy of limousines?
...meanwhile didnt the gvernement demonize the US Auto executives for flying in corporate jets?

...why is it that only the fucking comedy channel saw fit to bring such hypocrisy onto our TV screens?

really?

Good rant, Billy.

I have a vision of picking up the conference attendees at the airport (after flying in steerage class) in battery-powered rickshaws (or 80 pax cattle cars, if we felt generous), and dropping them at their hotels/hostels (double occupancy, no fresh towels or linens, self-service), and issuing them bicycles in the hotel lobby the next morning for a brisk, 12 mile winter ride to the conference.

Unless they want to admit they are all a bunch of self-serving hypocrites.

TR

Saving the planet, one golf cart at a time...
http://townhall.com/columnists/JohnS...stuff_from_sam

Quote:

Originally Posted by Richard (Post 302572)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sten (Post 302576)

If I wre a bright engineer at a traffic light manufacturer I would be hard at work on a heated (solar + storage) traffic signal housing.

I would bet that:

the municipality in question did not hire the right consultant to talk about the lights;
the decision to purchase and to install the lights was driven by political considerations more than environmental ones;
the timing of the decision was reliant on getting federal bail out monies;
at least one person on one crew tasked with installing the LED bulbs asked the question "Will these puppies burn hotly enough to keep from freezing?" At which point, the other members of the team went on a snark fest. (I am guessing that many understood that the LED bulbs were meant to lower costs in terms of workers' pay....)

Quote:

Originally Posted by GratefulCitizen (Post 302601)

<<SNIP>

[T]he hypocrites at the global warming summit showing up in individual limousines.

Over 1200 limousines and 140 private jets.
go figure... I hate the planet because I use good light bulbs but these statistic bending, self important, lying cocksuckers show up at a "save the planet" rally in a convoy of limousines?
...meanwhile didnt the government demonize the US Auto executives for flying in corporate jets?

I wonder how many attendees are writing off their use of private jets and limos as business expenses?;)

Meanwhile (source is here)...

Quote:

Police Beat Back Massed Climate Protesters
By TOM ZELLER Jr. and JOHN M. BRODER

COPENHAGEN — Police officers used pepper spray and wielded batons on Wednesday to beat back hundreds of demonstrators outside the global climate meeting here, as a police spokesman said 250 people had been arrested.

The police tried to disperse the chanting, drum-beating protesters who had marched from a train station about a mile away to try to make their way to the Bella Center, where representatives from nearly 200 countries are meeting to try to reach an accord on climate change. A group of 50 to 100 delegates emerged from the convention center, seeking to meet with the protesters, but they, too, were driven back by the police.

In another development, the Danish chairwoman of the conference, Connie Hedegaard, said she was stepping down and that the Danish prime minister, Lars Lokke Rasmussen, would take her place as heads of state from around the world begin arriving in Copenhagen. Ms. Hedegaard, a conservative, was Denmark’s minister of climate and energy and her placement as chairwoman of the conference was seen as part of a shifting of global environmental issues from the fringe into the political mainstream.

In Wednesday’s demonstrations, protesters began massing north of the center shortly before noon and pressed into a tight line of riot police blocking access to the hall. Some of the officers wielded truncheons against the chanting, shoving protesters in a close-order scrum. After forcibly removing protesters from a truck parked in an intersection outside the Bella Center, police in blue vans kept moving the protesters backwards, nearly pushing some into a watery marsh.

As the police vans advanced, skirmishes broke out with protesters who formed human chains and chanted their commitment to nonviolence and to helping people in parts of the world that they said would be hardest hit by climate change. A number of protesters encouraged individual groups to keep pushing against the police.

Police deployed water cannon at the southeast corner of the center to push back the marchers if necessary. “I can only say,” said Per Larsen, chief coordinator for the Danish police, “that they will not be able to enter the Bella Center.”

Climate Justice Action, a Danish umbrella group that has served as the organizing agent for a number of planned and spontaneous demonstrations during the conference, has a permit to march along a specified route south of the venue.

According to one organizer, Anne Petermann, the overarching message of Wednesday’s action is that the United Nations process for curbing climate change is a failure, and that there are “thousands of other solutions to climate change that aren’t being considered,” she said.*

Another member of the protest group, Richard Bernard, said he expected arrests and possible clashes with police. “Danish police have been violating human rights all week,” he said.**

Authorities were restricting access to the rail station serving the Bella Center, forcing many conference attendees to walk a mile or more in cold drizzle and biting winds.

Groups of delegates and members of nongovernmental organizations continued to stream on foot past subway stations that had been closed to prevent demonstrators from converging. They passed groups of detained protesters seated in neat rows, their hands tied with plastic police strips. Behind a department store, about a dozen detained protesters under police guard chanted anti-capitalist slogans.

Inside the center, ssenior;) officials, including Gordon Brown, the British prime minister, and Kevin Rudd, the Australian leader, arrived ahead of other world leaders to begin what was expected to be an intense day of talks to try to untangle some of the many issues standing in the way of a global agreement.

Negotiators debated until just before dawn without setting new goals for reducing greenhouse gas emissions or for financing poorer countries’ efforts to cope with coming climate change, key elements of any deal, The Associated Press reported.

"I regret to report we have been unable to reach agreement," John Ashe of Antigua, chairman of one negotiating group, said to the full 193-nation conference later Wednesday morning, The A.P. said.More than 100 heads of government were expected to arrive for the final negotiating sessions. The two-week meeting is scheduled to conclude on Friday and organizers were warning that time was short.

“In these very hours, we are balancing between success and failure,” Ms. Hedegaard told delegates Tuesday night before she stepped down. “Success is still within reach. But I must also warn you: we can fail.”

Much of the focus on Wednesday was expected to be on the financing arrangements of the deal, under which industrialized nations would transfer billions of dollars annually to poor nations to help them cope with a changing climate.

One of the proposals to be discussed Wednesday was put forward by Meles Zenawi, the prime minister of Ethiopia, who has been in talks with Mr. Brown, President Obama and other leaders. The amount and timing of payments was still under discussion.

Norway and Mexico have also offered a financing plan, which envisions annual payments to developing countries substantially higher than the $10 billion annual figure that Mr. Obama said the United States would support in the near term.

Developing countries have said that they will need $100 billion to $200 billion a year by 2020 to pay for low-carbon energy development and adaptation to global warming changes.

Outside the hall, police searched the bags of potential protesters and watched warily as crowds began to gather at rail stops within walking distance of the Bella Center.

Mette Hermansen, 27, studying to train teachers, and a member of the International Socialists of Denmark, said, “In the Bella Center they are not discussing solutions to climate change. They are discussing how rich countries can continue emitting and how to sell that to the public. We are not preventing leaders from making solutions but encouraging them to make solutions.”

James Kanter and Lars Kroldup contributed reporting from Copenhagen, and Jack Healy from New York.

*No better way to build consensus among myriad views than to have every member of a mob shout out in their native tongues their solutions at the same time.

*Did you know that historians have kept secret an early draft of Franklin Roosevelt's Four Freedoms speech?

It's true.

Initially, there was a fifth freedom: the right to asshattery. Somehow, someone talked the president into dropping it and just going with four.

One of the problems with "green solutions" is that any government tax incentives are just tacked onto the price by the producers. A product cost B to make and they would normally sell it for Y, but then they say,"well there going to get a tax credit, etc. so let's tack on an extra charge." I saw this same thing with wind turbines in the 80's.

When they label something organic or green, they just jack the price up. In economics they call it skimming the market. Figure the people who care about this stuff have more money than most. Then they turn around and complain that people do not care about the environment, etc. It's a BS deal.

Atroturf anyone?

From Sigaba's article...

".........Climate Justice Action, a Danish umbrella group that has served as the organizing agent for a number of planned and spontaneous demonstrations during the conference, has a permit to march along a specified route south of the venue......."

Don't think we'll hear anyone making "astroturf" claims against the lefties. How do you organize a spontaneous demonstration?

wow...
thats a bad-ass article right there!
A golf cart for 6490 bucks with a 6480 dollar rebate!

I live 2.4 miles from the 'drop zone' and all of the COOL skydivers jetset around the DZ in a golf cart.

Golf Carts are the stretch limo's of a civilian drop zone!

...and I might be able to get one for ten bucks !

I'm gonna get me a battery powered boom box with a big assed dragster engine sound and play it on a "loop" while I tool around raeford in my new 10 dollar golf cart.

sweet

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pete (Post 302650)

Don't think we'll hear anyone making "astroturf" claims against the lefties. How do you organize a spontaneous demonstration?

Pete--

The question crossed my mind until I recalled that they're in Copenhagen--the protesters did their planning meetings while blazed.

The spontaneous demonstrations are being conducted by those returning late from runs for brownies and nacho cheese Doritos or just waking up with that feeling they were supposed to be elsewhere for reasons they can't quite remember.

(I'm sure that Copenhagen's reputation for a certain kind of friendliness towards a specific green industry had nothing to do with its selection to host this prestigious historical event.)

The article does present an interesting perspective.

Quote:

Mette Hermansen, 27, studying to train teachers, and a member of the International Socialists of Denmark, said, “In the Bella Center they are not discussing solutions to climate change. They are discussing how rich countries can continue emitting and how to sell that to the public. We are not preventing leaders from making solutions but encouraging them to make solutions.”

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sigaba (Post 302647)

I would bet that:

the municipality in question did not hire the right consultant to talk about the lights;
the decision to purchase and to install the lights was driven by political considerations more than environmental ones;
the timing of the decision was reliant on getting federal bail out monies;
at least one person on one crew tasked with installing the LED bulbs asked the question "Will these puppies burn hotly enough to keep from freezing?" At which point, the other members of the team went on a snark fest. (I am guessing that many understood that the LED bulbs were meant to lower costs in terms of workers' pay....)

LEDs have been used in traffic lights for a while now, long before this whole "green" trend. LEDs are brighter, LED bulbs last for years while the old halogen bulbs only last a few months. Replacing bulbs costs the municipality money for the trucks and people who do the work, it also ties up traffic. Increasing the replacement interval can save a city money. LED bulbs save a lot of energy, they probably consume a 1/5 or less compared to their halogen bulb counterparts.

I'm far from a greenie, but blaming the LEDs causing the problem in this case because they're now labeled as "green" I believe is wrong. If the OPs report he heard today is the same as the article that I linked, then it was a rare freak accident. It looks like strong winds blew the snow horizontal into the light, causing the blockage. This isn't something that's common. Signal housings have big shields that cover 80% of the circumference of the light, and extend out about 12"

The real issue here is the idiot driver who plowed through a non functioning light and killed someone. Everyone is "supposed" to know how to treat a traffic light that's out.

What happens if there is a power failure or a car hits a traffic light service box and there are no lights and accidents ensue. Who do we place the blame on then for the lack of lights?

This is just my opinion, and sorry for the rant. My father was a traffic light engineer/planner for UDOT for a few years previous to his retirement. I'm just reranting his disgruntled rants :D