Aviation as a feeder
 

Greetings exalted ones,

I have seen many threads and dumb questions from wannabees who want to figure out 'whats the best branch?' to get into SF with as a commissioned officer. These questions are typically met with answers like "any of them, focus on your 25m," Or sometimes the more pragmatic discussion of Infantry and the ability to lead troops at the platoon level.

This is not that thread.

I would like to start a discussion on the skills/knowledge of an officer coming from an aviation background that would be useful to Army SF.

At a tactical level, I think understanding the physical/logistical capabilities of both rotary and fixed wing attack aircraft would be extremely valuable to an ODA or any other type of SF team on the ground.

At a strategic level, I think understanding the capabilities of assets that deliver S2 or meet supply needs is extremely helpful in planning and supporting operations in any theater.

Have you ever met any SF officers who came from aviation? What did they bring to the table? What were they lacking? Did they have any extra rapport when working with aviators from a CAB or a sister service?

If you want to be a staff officer and manage assets, go aviation. We need people who can juggle resources and the good ones are valued enablers. NTM - Aviators are really expensive to train; it's a poor ROI to let good ones branch transfer.

If you want to lead Special Forces Soldiers and motivate indigenous personnel to do dangerous, difficult things, in shit conditions I recommend Infantry, preferably Light Infantry, maybe even with an Airborne and Ranger component. Yes, we get all types and most rise to the demands despite their backgrounds but that's what we do when the balloon goes up and anything that prepares you for that reality will make you a better SF Officer. Anything you need to know about the other aspects of your job will either be taught to you or you will be afforded a "broadening assignment" (stuck on staff, drinking from a fire hose and left to sink or swim pretty much on your own) to learn it. MOO but I have been playing this game for a few years and I've seen generations of SF Officers come and go. And you don't need "extra rapport" to deal with Aviators - they're professionals too; they know what they bring to the fight and they want to do their job just as much as we want to do ours.

Peregrino, thanks for the reply.

Acronym questions: 'NTM'? 'MOO' ?

NTM = not to mention & MOO = my opinion only (also goes with YMMV - your mileage may vary).

I see. Thanks for the clarification. I agree with you that there is a 'best practices'/DoD-Budgetary concern when it comes to the concept of a rated aviator branch transferring in time to make the cut off for SFQC. I suppose that decision would ultimately fall on the signing authority to determine if that dude in question would be doing ROI to the 'parent organization.' It is interesting that within just the Army I have observed people be corralled by their unit/organization to prevent them from leaving. I feel like it is an issue if the person could do greater things for the taxpayer, just somewhere else.

Anyways...

I was keeping this post generalized thus far so that it could be useful to lurkers. However, in my specific case I already have a background as an enlisted infantryman. The commissioning source I am looking at is to do ROTC through my PhD program. I am doing this instead of just OCS with my undergrad degree because of the opportunity to serve as a Warrant officer aviator while in ROTC through the SMP program. The question of what to branch when going from warrant to commissioned has me thinking about what skills could prove to be useful. For example, if I branched AV after commissioning, I could end up doing fixed wing ISR work. Does that bear any fruit to be an 18A?

Fixed wing ISR-18A? No, it does not.

What are you trying to do? As your screen name applies, are you trying to earn everything you can on your way to the Space Command? What are your goals?
You need to think Big Picture.

What Infantry unit did you serve in? Do you honestly believe that flying or commanding soldiers who fly ISR platforms, can in any way prepare you to lead men out into any of the major operations that an SF Team could be called up to do?

It sounds to me like you want to game the system, I may be wrong. Not the first time, however, what do you really want to do? You need to figure that out. There are certain chapters you can have in the Army that will allow you to continue in the story of the book....... unfortunately the driving tanks and flying your own choppers like Rambo isn't really in the cards. I'm sure that there are exceptions, however they are very slim and at any rate not very well focused.

I served in the unit mentioned in my bio and had an interesting year in RC-E on a short contract that ended when I was 21. Since then I have have gotten an education and worked several years in the space field.

People like Billy Waugh and David Hackworth are the reasons I joined originally out of highschool. I read their books on scouting trips with the BSA. I am not trying to 'game the system.'

The 'New Space' industry is rapidly developing (and fielding) technologies that could turn into assets. These assets could literally re-define what is 'actionable-intel' for anyone of SF's given missions. A lot of this is not the same old 'new stuff' that would trickle down from the prime contractors that is fat with bureaucracy and things like 'field service reps' being sent to units to train courses. I think the ability to land 500 tons of material from orbit would give the guerilla leader quite a lot of marbles to play with. I think I personally could bring a lot of that expertise to SF because I really really freakin' believe in the FID mission that you fine people do.

I think from OSS to now the U.S. has built a tremendous amount of experience in this FID/UW world and that we are/can be so effective it at that it saves lives.

PS I like your Frank Castle avatar.

Across 35 years in Army SOF (32 of them in SF), I never encountered a former military aviator in SF Operational ranks. Plenty of folks with private pilot licenses, but no former military aviators assigned. Only current Army Aviators back when we had SF Flight Detachments assigned to Groups. Something that went permanently away back in the 1980s.

Conversely, I've known more than a few former SF enlisted who successfully went the Aviation Warrant route from SF. Both fixed wing and rotary wing.

Frankly, the level of aviation & space experience you'd bring to an ODA/ODB (both as a flyer and an operational planner) wouldn't really matter. Not as a former Aviation Warrant/Captain newly minted SF from the SFQC. Because nobody would be asking you for that kind of contribution.

We have tons of very experienced Logisticians, Planners, Technicians, & Operations officers who Jointly support SOF operations. Senior Warrants & Field Grades. At everything from Task Force to Theater levels. Organic, Attached, or in Direct Support. Supported by scads of experienced NCOs.

If we need anyone from SPACECOM to deliver 500 tons from orbit to outfit a proxy indig force... we already have access to that kind of enabling support. At tactical, operational, and strategic levels.

Nothing you bring to the table as a prior company grade aviation officer is really going to matter much down at ODA level. Outside of some professionally nuanced appreciation for CAS, weather conditions, trivia about a specific platform you flew, or DZ/LZ/HLZ considerations. Most of which is already understood (in terms of practical application) by non-aviator folks on an ODA.

Aviation isn't really rocket science down at Team Level. We coordinate for air support and the airplane/s or cargo arrive. Some Junior 18E or JTAC runs out and yells "Boss, Boss... de Plane, de Plane!". Then we either board, unload, un-ass, enslave their ISR feed, or drop munitions de jour.

You either want an 18A job... or you don't. If you want to fly (or enter the ground floor of an ever widening Space Force career)... do that instead. Do it well.

Regardless of your degree program, what's best suited for the SF Officer job is a solid background in Combat Arms. Preferably Infantry. Alternatively an SF Support Branch MOS billet while you await your Year Group turn-at-bat for SFAS. Extra Credit for seeking a commissioned tour at 75th Rangers, 160th SOAR, etc.

While team members will certainly respect a highly technical background, few such backgrounds translate well on an ODA. Not in terms of useful practicality on the ground. Notable exceptions being degreed linguistic or cross-cultural skills. A degree in physics means you're certifiably intelligent. But a degree in French or Chinese language studies makes you valuable in a more practical sense.

Sorry, just the way it is.

Peregrino already spelled things out for you. Giving you the perspective of an experienced Senior SF Officer.

My perspective is that of mere SF Enlisted Swine, but I've been involved in the care & feeding of more than a few SF Captains.

Were I entertaining ROTC commissioning and a theoretical path to 18A... I'd also be calculating a viable road to assignment at 75th Rangers. As an Infantry Platoon Leader. A truly excellent proving ground for a future 18A.

Let me see if I've got the correct read on your situation...

1. You're currently in college
2. You're possibly IRR (fulfilling remainder of prior enlistment reserve obligation)
3. You are going to join a Guard Aviation unit (SMP)
4. You are not yet in a contracted ROTC program
5. You haven't completed your undergraduate degree
6. You plan on a PhD program in the future
7. You have technical space-centric experience/employment (outside of school)
8. You imagine you'd like to go back to the military as an officer
9. You want to do the Aviation WOC thing and become a pilot
10. You think you'd like to eventually be an SF 18A

Numbers 6 & 7 (if true) will contribute little to your commissioned accession into Special Forces, but might open key assignment doors somewhere down the road.

Number 9 (if pursued to fruition) will likely close your door to Number 10. For a whole host of reasons, but basically boiling down to 1) By that time, you won't want to and 2) the Army won't want you to.

Right now, I don't think you really know what you truly want. But you've proposed a highly ambitious list of goals. You might want to plan on staying single for awhile.

Good Luck.

So let me get this straight........ You see that our issue currently in Afghanistan is that Uncle Sugar hasn't spent enough money? You believe that the ability to drop a payload of 500 tons is somehow going to change the course of the last 20yrs? Having the ability to drop them Tons of more weapons, ammo, widgets and whatever else (Tim Hortons anyone?) is somehow going to allow the Afghan Government to better defend/protect their peoples and gubmint?

During your stint in the Infantry did you deploy anywhere?

Do you know what Risk Aversion is?

Authorizations vs Appropriations?

If you really want to take a deep dive, then maybe you should research how many Combat Halo drops have been conducted since 2001, and how that relates to how many Halo ODA's have deployed to conduct Combat Operations.

IMOO I believe that we have wasted enough Blood and Treasure in Afghanistan, and that zero amount of 500 Ton payloads is going to change that, unless of course you are talking about conquering and colonizing. If that's your goal then have at it, terraform away.

If you really want to bring a skill set to SF then I would look into branching Cyber. To me there is a hell of a lot more capability there, that has direct impact on certain missions, that can be applied at the ODA and above..... My $.02

I have known a few Army aviators that came to (really back to) SF. One came back as a Major, and retired as a Colonel. A couple more who were RIFed as Majors (prior enlisted SF) and came back as WOs. And one enlisted SF to aviation WO and came back to SF (after going to O&I as a WO). All of them were very good leaders and I would work with them again.

Their Aviation skills/experiences brought nothing to the SF table at all. Oh, I also knew a real rocket scientist in SF (CPT), he had some minor (nerdy) issues but not a bad leader.

If your goal is SF, go Airborne/Ranger Infantry.

Not to jump on top of the pile....

You seem motivated and very smart. You’ve read about and seen SF folks doing amazing and heroic feats. It is commendable that you yourself would strive for a higher calling like that.

1. It is a hard life and it takes its toll...every single QP on this site would probably love to talk for hours on their injuries, wounds, divorces, and many other host of problems.

2. You seem to have skills equated with intelligence....where would your skills be most useful? From what you’re telling ME.....industry. Honestly, my wife works in industry and your “500 tons from space” comment sounds like stuff she would be working on. She worked with/for USSOCOM for 12 years now works directly with/for USAF.

Consider your far future. I was infantry and was getting ready for a reenlistment and told my dad I wanted to go aviation (crew chief) because I was sick of walking everywhere with 65lbs of equipment on my herniated disked back. He had me look at the big picture of job placement of an infantry door gunner in the civilian market place....yeah. So, I did the long walk instead, back pain and all. SF is fairly marketable, but a rocket scientist with cyber-stuff.....

Hopefully you’ll get my point. YMMV

I have only seen one former aviator in the SF officer ranks. He was my very first team leader in 20th Group, a former Naval aviator that had been riffed in the late '70s.

For what it's worth, I had a former fixed wing aviator in my SFQC who successfully completed the course. I am unsure if SF was always his desired end state or something he arrived at later in his career. That said it did not provide him any unique advantages in the course.

Perhaps if you flew a rotary wing platform and understood the capabilities and limitations it would lend you some insight from a GFC perspective.

Ultimately there is no "right" answer for prior branches (one of my peers is an 88A). However some branches will provide a better foundation for SF. I'd recommend either infantry or field artillery if you are 100% sure you want to go SF. Just my .02.

I went through the Q with a helicopter pilot. He went SF because he knew that his actual flying career was pretty much over unless he resigned his commission and went WO. He decided to pursue SF instead.

x/S

Put on your reading boots fellas - this one's a doozie............

Aviation as a feeder?
Aviation as a feeder for what?

Have you ever met any SF Officers who came from aviation? Yes and No.
I've seen lots of former signal guys, MPs, Artillery, Chemical Officers, and a ton of Infantry Branch become 18A's but never an aviator.
I did have an ODA Warrant Officer - 180A - that had a stint as a helicopter pilot. I have no idea why he went from flying whirlybirds to being in SF - i never asked. This was in the early 90's and he was already a CW3 when I met him. Great Guy.
In 2005 I had a Civil Affairs Captain attached to my ODA and we found out halfway through the rotation that he had been an Apache Pilot - also a great guy.

Did they have any extra rapport when working with aviators from a CAB or a sister service?
Partway through my 2005 trip, we got ambushed - we didn't have a TACP attached to the team and as things progressed, the CA Captain ended up on the radio in his truck talking to the aircraft in what sounded like a foreign language and they started shooting at stuff for him - so we let him have at it while we herded our Afghan Militia like we would have herded cats.

What did they bring to the table?
We found out later that evening that he was a former Apache pilot with a LOT of flight hours under his belt so he absolutely knew how to talk on the radio about shooting at targets on the ground. I DID ask him why he switched and he said it was because he wanted a break. Going from Aviation to SF just because you might someday make a good substitute for a TACP is a horrible waste of talent and skill. He had a reason and was in Civil Affairs - NOT Special Forces.
The ODA Warrant officer never did anything that make me think "wow, this guys knows some cool aircraft shit" and its a good thing he does. He was however, an exceptional SF guy. He knew SF shit frontwards and backwards. Being a great SF guy is what he brought to the table - he was my measuring stick for every 180A that I worked with for a long long time.


That being said - if you have a foundation in the Infantry, SF would be a fine path to follow. If you had a foundation in Aviation and still wanted to contribute to SOF - there is an Army Special Operations Aviation Command that would love to put you through their assessment and selection process when you are ready. They would DEMAND that you excel at performing in an Aviation role. One of their founders went on to become a four star general and USSOCOM Commander - so there is certainly a future in SOF Aviation if aviation is your thing.

As an ODA Commander, the 'New Space' industry will continue to rapidly develop - while you are busy focusing on the non-space related day-to-day business of a Special Forces A-Detachment. if aviation is your thing, Special Forces is not for you. Those emerging technologies will STILL be fielded as assets and then employed to provide actionable intelligence that would eventually be passed on to an ODA - maybe even 'your' ODA. Then, those targets could be prosecuted by boots on the ground. The thing is - those assets and information would be developed, fielded, employed, collected, analyzed, prioritized, and assigned by people NOT serving on an ODA so again - if aviation is your thing - SF probably is not your thing.

If you pursue aviation and find yourself in SOF Aviation, you might become indirectly or even DIrectly involved in the process of collecting and pushing actionable intel down to the operator but you're not going to action that data if you are busy in the cockpit saying things like "tree, fife, and niner"
The same trickle down process you mention will ALWAYS flow back and forth between the prime contractors and the fat corrupt bureaucracy - you wont be a part of that either if you are busy either flying little Birds, or leading host Nation troops in combat.

At some point, Monty Hall is going to ask you to pick a door.
Behind Door Number One is an ODA doing what ODA's do
Behind Door Number Two is an Aviator - with cool sunglasses and neat flying machines.
Behind Door Number Three is a lucrative career as a defense contractor rubbing elbows with an increasingly corrupt bureaucracy.

YOU have to choose the door.
The beauty of it all - is that you don't have to play 'Lets Make a Deal' - Monty Hall isn't going to send you home with a zonk prize if you pick the wrong door. The choice is all yours.

If you like the ability to land 500 tons marbles from orbit for the guerillas to play with, then being an ODA Team Leader means you are going to stand there and watch while your TACP or 18E runs the equipment that lands the alien spacecraft full of magic slingshot ammunition. Maybe 18A isn't the MOS you are looking for - maybe an enlisted MOS would be more rewarding.

If you "really really freakin' believe in the FID mission" then you need to understand that guerillas are the BAD guys that SF tangles with when they are doing Foreign Internal Defense - so you just gave 500 tons of marbles to the wrong people (you should try politics - congress does that shit ALL.THE.TIME.) - just kidding with you - but there IS a difference and it DOES matter.
Guerillas are who SF works with when they do Unconventional Warfare. There are TONS of people in congress - today - collecting a paycheck - that also "[I]really really freakin' believe{/I]" in FID that would that shit a giant gold egg if they found out you were giving marbles to guerillas.

Another option would be supporting the mission. Maybe your BEST contribution might actually be in support of SOF. Names like Billy Waugh, Bob Howard, Robby Miller, Aaron Bank, Roy Benavidez, and a long long list of men of such greatness that this nation will never truly appreciate...
...all of them needed support at one point or another. Even if it was just a supply guy that made sure they had bullets and hand grenades. They all needed a ride to the battlefield. Everyone needs support - you dont need to wear a uniform to support a mission.

In the most sincerest of intentions - pick the door that appeals to you the most. The "Monty Hall Problem" does not exist in this context - all three doors are opened to you - all you have to do is pick which one appeals to you the most. There's no trick - there's no music that goes WAh WAH WAAHHH when you find out that you picked a door with a goat behind it. All "you" have to do is just accept the fact that you cant go through all three doors at once.

You also need to understand that very few folks in SF desire to interact with someone that seems to be communicating the message that they seek to use Special Forces as a stepping stone to some other end. That is why so many posts like this one tend to go south on the OP. As much as you might intend NOT to communicate that message - EVERY.SINGLE.POST.EVER. that starts out with...
"Ive been thinking about going SF, - but..."
...immediately leaves the impression that the poster looks at "us" like a stepping stone to some other objective.

Aviation as a feeder?
Yes, definitely - just make sure you are well aware of what door you pick before you walk through it.

He (Bryan "Doug" Brown) was also a SF troop in 7th Group when he applied for OCS. He wore that Green Beret when he was assigned to SOF units. For me, he was the best General Officer that I worked with, extremely smart.

I knew an enlisted SF guy that became a pilot, but not the other way around.

Gentlemen,


Hello! I appreciate your kind and wise advise that you have been generous enough to solicite to me.

So to address all of you:

Mostly: Yes! Some:
No. Sir, I am no longer pursuing WOCS as a subsequent of the pandemic. For everyone else here: I will continue to pursue aviation as an MOS post undergrad and I will either be 'shit-hot' at patrolling; or I won't be. I will train my ass off and will be sent to Ranger school to further ferment my skills as an infantry patrolling man or I wont. I will either be sent to the SFQC as an AV officer proficient at patrolling and I will pass: or I will not.

What I do know: Is that I a am a former infantry guy who knows how to patrol well and I believe in myself and my ability to instruct others on academic and practical skills.

No, Mr. Longwire, that is not the summary of my opinions. I have spent some time in Afghanistan, and I think the issue there is an applications one. Not a human one of blood nor treasure. I do not think that munitions nor material will address policy outcomes that have *yet* to propagate a positive outcome for the warfighter. However: I do think that if the US was able to vantage 'material' on a faster turnaround; and was able to do so with the precision that could be landed by modern spacecraft, he could have an even further "angelic" profile of intense and capable industry backing. I support the US mission in Afghanistan as an Afghan war vet. I think that US goals in the region have hope, and that there is SOME way to train the ANA and ANP to handle and serve the nation that they are aligned to.

To you other kind QP's who have been willing to shower me with some attention:

Thank you. It seems that against better guidance I am going to take my CIB and run headfirst into an aviation commission (TrapperFrank, Miclo18D, Joker, Redhawk12,ExSquid, and Box (I had to resist the urge to say 'Beavis'): Thank you so much for your insight. I have a much better understanding of both my personal and potential shortcomings as a result of your feedback.

I am going to be working part time in industry for the entire lead up and duration of potential time as a team leader.

I am extremely interested in becoming a NASA astronaut during the duration of my career as a human being.

However to address Box specifically: I am NOT interested in becoming a team leader or SF for the purposes of being 'on the way to something'.

Aaron Bank sold me on becoming SF. Period. I am a warfighter and thats how I want to fight war, the unconventional way. I want to become a team leader who influences the fight against our enemies both irregular and peer or otherwise. I wholeheartedly believe in the UW/FID mission and my ability to bring *Shit-hot* mission planning to it.

I appreciate ya'lls input and insight. I have a few semesters to go in undergrad before I commission and an even further stretch of time before I attempt something like an SFRE or even SFAS. I will not let an SF-trooper down by being unprepared. I will be *shit-hot* at patrolling and I will be damn fluent in the language(s) and history of any region I am assigned to.

Thanks PS.com for all the damn reading... From guys who knew people like Billy Waugh, Dick Meadows, Larry Thorne, or Changiz Lahidji. You guys represent such a capable population.. and I appreciate it.

I hate to burst your bubble but if you commission as a AV officer and get qualified your branch probably will not release you to attend SFQC. That does not happen these days. AV branch spends a lot of money to train a pilot and wants to get their money’s worth on that investment.

Now if the AV officer is a turd and after many marginal evaluations they may let you go but SF will not be looking for that person.

Good luck which ever way you go.