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The Reaper 05-21-2006 12:41


Originally Posted by lrd
Thanks, TR.

Fortunately, the families here spend a lot of free time up in Waimea Canyon (where we'll evacuate to on-island) 4-wheeling, hunting, fishing, hiking and riding the trails on mountain bikes. Like you said, there is plenty of water but it isn't potable (lots of wild pigs up on the ridges).

I need to make sure my ladies are prepared to drive, since the majority of the guys will be in the air. Any recommendations for moving supplies on mountain trails other than rucks? I was thinking about bags for the mountain bikes that the older kids could ride. We'll be carrying the small children.

Llamas or mules.

Failing that, I would say saddlebags, bike panniers, or I have seen a number of rickshaw looking bicycle wheeled carts. During the SE Asian wars, a lot of supplies (several hundred pounds per bike) were moved on very small trails using bicycles with a handlebar extension loaded up and walked on the trail.

If you are already 4-wheeling, why not use that, with a small trailer?


lrd 05-21-2006 13:04


Originally Posted by The Reaper
If you are already 4-wheeling, why not use that, with a small trailer?


There is only one paved road up the canyon. In heavy rains, the dirt roads are slick as snot and flooded. The first stage of evacuation can be done in vehicles, but if we have to move on up it'll be on foot.

The Reaper 05-21-2006 14:28


Originally Posted by lrd
There is only one paved road up the canyon. In heavy rains, the dirt roads are slick as snot and flooded. The first stage of evacuation can be done in vehicles, but if we have to move on up it'll be on foot.

Yeah, I have spent some time in the Kahukus and know what you mean.

Tsunami coming, you are heading into the mountains afoot with everybody else, move light and fast.

Worry about everything else later. You can eat the guavas if you have to.


Monsoon65 05-21-2006 15:23

Evac/First Aid
Thanks for all the great ideas!!

Yes, I do have a 4x4. Getting off road to evac would be the best idea. I'll need to find the city route out to avoid them. I don't think I'd have to go really far, just out of the contamination zone. Maybe 1-2 hours out (75-100 miles?) I have a mountain bike I can use to transport if necessary, or just hump it out on foot. A strong will to live is a great motivator.

I already carry a first aid kit in the car. I have a ruck packed with a few items in case I have to leave in a hurry. I do need to work on water purification, tho. I have shovels/pry bar/etc in the garage I can toss in the truck.

For first aid, I'd think you'd be limited on what you know. An IV set up might be nice, but unless you know how to use it, it's just extra weight. Either pack stuff you can use, or learn how. Looks like I might be visiting our medics for some training.

Antibiotics are necessary, but has anyone thought about vitamins? Might be useful to suppliment food and things the body might be missing. Something like a multi-vitamin?

MtnGoat: You mentioned a Cougar being an "off road vehicle". A friend saw a guy driving the AlCan in a Caddy!! Wonder what shape it was when he arrived?

mugwump 05-21-2006 18:22

Medkit addition (FOG Alert)
Reading glasses in a hardshell case.

MtnGoat 05-21-2006 19:35


Originally Posted by Monsoon65
MtnGoat: You mentioned a Cougar being an "off road vehicle". A friend saw a guy driving the AlCan in a Caddy!! Wonder what shape it was when he arrived?

On Bragg you would see all kinds of vehciles driving the fire breaks. So with that said - you can drive anything down just about any road. You don't need a 4x4 to EVAC you family or self. You just got to know how to drive something right. I've driven a Cougar down some missed up roads doing some "off roading".
Sounds like you have a good plan - just look up the city routes to be safe.

The Reaper 05-21-2006 19:47


Originally Posted by mugwump
Reading glasses in a hardshell case.

You mean a spare set as back-ups for the primary ones you have on you.:D

That reminds me, if you are looking at an extended period without competent medical care, I would add a med book or two to the kit.

Anyone else have recommendations beyond the SF Med Handbook, "Ditch Medicine" and "Where There Is No Doctor"?


MtnGoat 05-21-2006 20:21

I know this isn't medical but I would add the FM 21-76 "Survival" or how is it now 3-05.76. Having a good Survival book that covers you AO is always great to have.

Cincinnatus 05-21-2006 21:08


Originally Posted by The Reaper
Anyone else have recommendations beyond the SF Med Handbook, "Ditch Medicine" and "Where There Is No Doctor"?

I think most people would be well served by Tilton's "Wilderness First Responder" (ISBN 0-7627-2801-9)

Actually taking the course, either through NOLS, SOLO, or someone else would be better still. The class is eight or nine days and will run several hundred dollars, but is money well spent.

mugwump 05-21-2006 22:24

Wilderness Medicine, Beyond First Aid by William Forgey. Great book with thoughtfully worked up prescription and OTC med lists. I actually gave this to my internist to look over a couple of years back -- I was trying to get him to write me scripts for the recommended prescription drugs. He agreed on the condition that I followed the administration guidelines in this book, which he thought were spot on.

Cincinnatus 05-22-2006 08:35

Thanks, mugwump, that looks interesting. I'd never heard of this book, but given your recommendation and the five star rating from reviwers on amazon I think I'll pick it up.

A thought that occurred to me after I posted the above was that the format of the Tilton book, large paperback (8.5" x 11"?) doesn't lend itself so well to a BOB. I believe the SF Med Handbook is both smaller format and designed to hold up better - waterproof paper, three ring binding, etc. So probabley a better choice overall, though the Tilton book is aimed for those who know little and very well laid out.

mugwump 05-22-2006 20:20

Burns, gut diseases such as cholera, and the current strain of H5N1 can all cause life-threatening dehydration. If the patient is to survive, you must replace the water and electrolytes that have been lost. The following is a simple, inexpensive solution that you can mix up using ingredients easily found in any grocery store (available this week -- next week, ???). All the ingredients store well, so get them now.

Specific to Flu: Note that administering oral rehydration solution and sufficient Tylenol (don't give aspirin/ibuprofen/other NSAIDs to kids under 12 with the flu -- stock up on Tylenol generic acetaminophen) to keep the body temperature no higher than 101 F are two recommended home care treatments for flu. If available, administer statins (Lipitor, Zocor) to ease the inflammatory response (cytokine storm) caused by H5N1.

Expedient Oral Rehydration Solution (based upon WHO formula, revised 2004)

This formula is based upon the readily available "Morton Lite Salt Mixture" found in blue 11 oz. containers. The container should say "Half the Sodium of Table Salt" and the first two ingredients should be salt and potassium chloride.

Morton Lite Salt 1 tsp.
Baking Soda 1/3 tsp.
Table Sugar 2 tablespoons
Potable Water 1 Liter (= 1 Qt. + 2 tablespoons)

Chill if possible. This tastes quite salty to someone who isn't dehydrated. You can mix it with sugar-free Kool-Aid or Crystal Lite or whatever as long as it is sugar-free. Add the minimum flavoring to make it palatable. Avoid products with sugar or the artificial sweetener Splenda (sucralose) which will change the osmolality of the solution and possible worsen diarrhea. If the patient will drink it plain so much the better.

Have small children start with 1 tsp. every 5 - 10 minutes, which is usually quite well tolerated. The amount can be increased every 30 - 60 minutes (2 tsp, 3 tsp, 2 tablespoons, etc. every 5 - 10 minutes).

Adults can go on the same increasing schedule but start with a tablespoon.

If the patient is moderately to severely dehydrated (skin "tenting" is present - when pinched skin does not return to the original flat shape; compare with your own skin) and unresponsive you can still use an eye dropper to introduce small amounts of solution into the mouth - I'm talking drop-by-drop over time, not pumping whole droppers full repeatedly into the mouth. Over several hours you can administer a significant amount of solution - tedious but potentially life-saving.

Cincinnatus 05-22-2006 22:44

I recently saw "Disater Medicine" spoken well of on another board, here's the link;

I have not read it, and it may be a bit outside of what we're discussing here (i.e. it seems like a book you'd keep as a reference if you were "bugging in" or might like to have read before bugging out, rather than something you'd include in your BOB), but it looks interesting.

mugwump 05-23-2006 08:27

Cheap, Compact Water Storage
Dehydrated water! Kidding. :)

Sorry to jump ahead to water storage, but I think this is a prudent option for many and these things are on sale now for the upcoming holiday weekend. Like the "water purification on the cheap" solution it is inexpensive and minimizes "situation normal" storage requirements. It is not useful in a bolt out of the blue water contamination scenario but it would be useful in a situation where you get advanced warning, e.g. hurricane, pandemic, etc.

Current US government guidelines call for storing a two week supply of food and water - one gallon / person / day. For a family of 4 that is 56 gallons. That is eleven Wally World 5 gal containers or one 55 gal food grade barrel. Traditional supplementary emergency water sources include your hot water heater, toilet reservoir, and bathtubs (turn off the main water inlet to the house if you suspect contamination - treat as contaminated if unsure).

Fifty to sixty gallon barrels are about $70 a pop without shipping, are tremendously heavy when full and take up a lot of room. The small, cheap 5-gal containers from Wally World are also costly in the numbers required and leak with annoying regularity.

An alternative solution is a flexible rigid-sided (not inflatable) child's wading pool with a painter's plastic drop cloth as a cover. If unopened the pools store in a small space (a 6' diameter pool is 6"x6"x16") and they are quite inexpensive (I spent $14 on a six footer on sale at Ace). They can be set up in a garage, basement or other protected area when your particular warning threshold has been reached and they hold a fair amount of water:

Six foot diameter X 1 foot depth = 28 cu. feet = 209 gallons

Eight foot diameter X 2 foot depth = 101 cu. feet = 756 gallons

Pick up additional thin plastic drop sheets for lining you bathtub before filling for storage. You can block the drain this way (mine always leak slightly) and you can increase the fill by up to 25% by blocking the overfill drain.

Plastic/vinyl contamination? Least of my worries if this has to be used, and hopefully it's only short term. If you are really worried use the water for clothes washing/bathing/flushing and save your more palatable sources for drinking.


PSM 05-23-2006 11:49

Water Storage
The empty 5 liter bladders that boxed wine comes in are refillable. (Of course you have to empty them first :D ) Left in the box they are easily stackable; out of the box they can be frozen. Also, in the box, they can be grabbed on the way out the door if you are in a hurry.


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