"Leave No Teacher Standing"
 

A phrase I heard today during Parent - Teachers Conference describing the Presidents Education Program. I have a first and fourth grader.

Although both teachers I met were strong Democrats and quite pissed about the Education Secretary calling their union a "terrorist organization" they did make some valid points.

1. The test is 4 hours long, five days in a row. This is an incredible amount of time for me to sit still and concentrate, much less my 10 year old son.

2. Two students who just arrived from Russia have never attended school and will test in this group. Thus pulling the collective score down. Funding is based on these scores.

I have not kept up with this, but hoped maybe some of you might have some input.

What do you think about it?

I think the Home Schooling surge pretty much says it all about most public schools.

In the past 40 years, I have seen teachers as a group, go from caring, nurturing, well-educated members of the community to largely unqualified or underqualified hacks kept in their jobs only by a socialist, leftist agenda pushing union.

The sad part is, many parents don't care, and the school represents a free baby-sitting service for their unfocused, ill-behaved (but can do no wrong) progeny.

You get a school with open-minded, dedicated teachers, motivated students, and concerned parents it is a beautiful thing, but the educational system is designed to break those combinations up and reward the worst performers.

Just my .02, YMMV.

TR

I think that many teachers will start to push their political beliefs on our children. Be sure to let your children know the real truth for that you know and believe and not that teachers across America believe politically.

I've made it a practice to watch things like the "State of the Union" with my boys. This year my 12 year old asked me if Kennedy and some of the others were Americans. Nuff said.

Dan:

You know, I am beginning to like you. In a non-homo kind of way, of course.

Tell CC to get his happy ass back in here.

TR

I would have to echo TR's comments. We took our son out of the public schools this year as they are failing and failing quickly. His school is about to be taken over by the federal government because their test scores show no imporvement and in fact a steady decline.

Last year when the principal pulled students into the auditorium to give them a pep talk before the test, some parents took offense and suggested that she did it to demean the children. She was relieved and later fired for this.

There is no such thing as Special Ed anymore. They are all in class together, often in an overcrowded room, where they move at the pace of the slowest child. The special ed children recieve ONE extra hour a week of help from the Special Ed teacher.

I spent a good portion of the last year as a parent in the classroom assisting the teacher with the daily schedule. It is amazing to see that these kids do not care, and the parents are worse. It is true, school is a day care center and that is about it for most of the kids, second only to the fact that school is a fashion parade. it is horrible the way some people allow a 10 year old to dress, and then let them out of the house with that crap on. Morals are going down the tubes and it is the parents allowing it to happen

I would say that a good portion of the teachers do honestly want to educate children but there are some who seem to care even less then the children do. As far as teachers pushing their political views, that has been going on for some time. I distinctly recall my junior year Am. History teacher (a left over hippie) forcing her ideas onto us and giving me crap about my pro-military stance. You are right, you can counter that by helping in your childs education. But as we said, many parents think school is day care. Do you honestly believe they will lift a finger to help their child at home much less show them the other side of the coin?

My son has improved 100% since we removed him from the PS system. Now we have a normal 10 year old who stands a chance at a good education and getting into a better college.

Ok, enough of my dysfunctional ramblings.

Men,


I have 2 kids and I am doing everything in my power to either send them to a private school here or to have my wife home school them. My son is special needs and I was NOT impressed with the program that the public schools put forth in front of me.

Both of my parents were public educators for 30+ years so I do know that good educators exist.

Best Regards,
JJ

MCC, reporting as ordered. ;)

A little background:
My Dad taught fifth grade for over twenty years. He retired from teaching when the burden of paperwork took away so much of his time that he could no longer offer the quality of education that was his standard.

This is my fifth year to homeschool. My oldest son graduated last year, is taking some time off, then plans to attend college next Fall. It took one full year to undo the damage done by a school system that received an Exemplary rating (top score) from the state in several of the past ten years. That was damage done while I attended every meeting available, extensive phone calls, and all the support I could give to the teachers. I was, after all, a teacher's kid. The last two years, I spent every hour of my vacation time in meetings at the school. While the meetings seemed productive and the outcome both measurable and predictable, such was very rarely the case.

So, five years ago, after three years of my oldest son begging to be homeschooled, I quit my full-time job, brought my children home, and continued reading and learning about all things homeschool. Just today, I had to defend my right to homeschool my youngest son in a courtroom. I was successful. The journey for the next six years will not be easy, but is absolutely essential if I want my youngest son to have critical thinking skills. He has his own challenges, but with persistence, he has every opportunity to do almost anything he wants.

There are several public school teachers in my family - all support my decision and my efforts.

Standardized testing as it stands is a thorn that teachers and students must endure to appease bureaucrats. Every other year, I use the ITBS (Iowa Test of Basic Skills) to assess progress. It is not mandatory in my state, but is a tool for my use. It is long, but my funding does not depend on it, nor am I required to teach to it.

Rhonda

edited to add a comment about my Dad and get back on topic

Public school systems are definitely locality specific in performance. IMO, It is not the training level of teachers that has changed... well that would be the rare case for the reason of the public school's decline.

It is the children's attitudes and expectations. It is the lack of support from the administration to support the teacher's attempts at discipline. The lack of proper upbringing and individual responsibility being taught to this younger generation is probably the biggest problem in today's public schools.

As to my bias, both my parents were career public education teachers as well as one of my wife's parents. I went to public schools and so did my wife. I would send my kids to the high school of my city right now.

The teachers at the school get paid higher wages than at private schools. The high school, middle school, and two elem. facilities are new as of last year. There are cameras in every classroom to not only monitor the teachers but also to help enforce punishment for the troublemaker kids. Finally, the Bush education initiatives are being enforced and followed for teacher AND student performance. BOTH are being held accountable...They either put up or shut up.. If the kid is worthless and not going to folow the rules-off to CLC for his last chance before boot camp or worse. Teachers are given the heave ho if they don't stack up to the norms.

There is always someone waiting to get their job because of the city's pay supplement. I realize this is not a solution for most areas... but it is working in my area.

Sounds like good ole' missipp is not that bad off after all... so much for putting value in national education statistics .:p

A friend recently adopted three Russian orphans. She spent the Summer teaching them how to eat with utensils, basic manners, and basic emotional security. By the time school started, they had exemplary manners, were eager to learn, and grateful for the opportunity to do so. By the end of the first six weeks, she had two boys who were rebellious, ungrateful, and constantly in trouble. The girl was succeeding in the classroom, but not as eager. She pulled the two boys out to homeschool and they are regaining lost ground by doing a seven-hour school day with additional help from a ESL tutor. The girl will finish this school year in public school, then homeschool with her brothers.

My friend calls the current state of public school a utopian orphanage based on their family's experiences with both. Survival at all costs is what her sons learned in both places.

HOME SCHOOL?
 

Howdy Folks, I wandered out of my sandbox over in the knife section. Wow, very interesting discussion here. Just a footnote, we homeschool all three of our kids simply because failure is not an option. Thanks! Bill

I agree with The Reaper.

Question for the home-schooling folks:

How do college admissions offices view home schooling?

Roguish lawyer, Some University's here in Oregon really seem to like home schooled students. As a rule the home schooled are better prepared in many areas and this makes higher ed look better. The k-12's public schools and teachers unions are vehemently opposed because it threatens their jobs and takes away "their" tax dollars. Don't get much help from them and could care less, we still have to pay the taxes to support them AND foot the bill on our homeschooling. Footnote: All three of my kids made it to Oregon State Finals in competitive swimming, two of them are third year latin students (ages 13 and 14) and test at the highest level nationally. They also behave much better than their peers on many levels. Please do not confuse this with being perfect, they are consumate trouble makers too. Bill

One would think that home-schooled kids would add quite a bit of diversity to college campuses, but . . .

Some of my own recent observations:

While the US may lag behind other countries in subjects like math, geography, science and just about everything else, the one area I have seen US students shine is in critical thought. Critical thought is the primary component in an information based economy. I think home schooling may tend to discourage critical thought as well.

Critical Thought???
 

Jimbo Sir, Upon what do you base your accusation of "home schooled children" not having critical thought? Bill

Have to disagree as well.

Feeding kids a steady diet of liberal pablum and PC thinking is hardly likely to create critical thinkers.

Do you have kids in school, Jimbo?

TR

I do not have any kids, much less any in school. However, I have been taught by my father (CCD) and found that my behavior and attitude in his class was markedly different than in school and it had nothing to do with the subject matter. I don't challenge my father (or mother for that matter). I'm probably one of the kids that make you gentelmen take your kids out of school.

Most home schooled kids I have known (admittedly only a few) have excelled at rote learning and that was about it.

Allow me to tack on that the homeschooled kids I knew were from a time when the 'movement' was considerably less organized than it is now.

TR/Bill-
I encountered many home schooled classmates going through my post-high school education. On average, I found them to be just as capable in academic abilities and critical thinking skills. The only deficit that I have seen in the group is that they lack the ability to function well in peer groups. It is the only personal stereotype I have developed about the overall group. IMO, this leads them to have difficulty functioning on teams that don't necessarily agree to do things their way. I think it stems from the "your my #1 student" mentality that they get when mom is their teacher. They always graduate #1 in their class every year. They aren't expected to be responsible for themselves and their education. MOM is always on top of things... No way they can get out of doing their homework and learn the critical lesson of self-reliance.

I have seen this in numerous classmates and it tends to be a strong pattern in home schooled children. This is true of the non-formal independent home school parents and the national association/national convention type of home school parents.

How do most parents try to counter this? Easy and some parents succeed at it. They enroll them in athletics, arts, groups such as boy scouts, etc. This enables them to get the peer to peer interaction that they need . Lessons of winning, teamwork, losing with character, hard work , and competition are learned not taught and read about. Also, these are ways to expose the child to discipline from other adults who have authority over the child.

I have no problem with home schooling although I feel that children that receive an education from a local high school (public or private) have the potential for getting a better education. There are of course exceptions for personal beliefs/value contradictions as well as religious values. I consider special needs kids to be a class of their own and not in this discussion.

Some of the best teachers I have ever been exposed to were from my high school era. That includes fancy boy private college and competitive professional school professors.

I am glad we have a choice though... and I am especially glad that you guys/gals who feel the need for your child have sacrificed what it takes to make it happen. Whether I agree with home schooling for mine or not, I completely respect your decision to do it for your kids.

It worked for me.

What does that say about you? :D

You think pretty highly of yourself, do you?

TR

I don't see how anyone can generalize about home schooling in the way some are doing here. I would think that the quality of a home school depends -- as it does for a traditional school -- on the quality and commitment of the teachers, the availability of adequate resources (note that I don't think you need much to get to "adequate," so don't go there please), the commitment of the parents and the curriculum. It probably varies quite a bit from home school to home school.

If you're going to generalize, I think the issue really is whether kids lose out on social lessons when they're in a home school. Some home schools network with each other to address this problem, but even then you're going to have an issue. I don't know what the effect is, but I think that's the central difference between a home school and a traditional one. Beyond that, you'll see variance on both sides in every direction.

Not at all. I recognize my deficiencies in many areas, such as: knot tying, procrastination, calculus, weather prediction, connecting on an emotional level, overuse of the passive voice and commas, weak Arabic as well as Urdu and Uzbek, keeping my workshop clean, finding all the tax deductions for which I qualify, using too much index finger on the trigger, etc....

However, I have depended on my ability to think critically to put a roof over my head for the last several years and in my experience, the diversity of thought in the public school system did a better job of preparing students in that area.

Pretty broad generalization for a critical thinker.

Also a bit inflamatory towards the people on this board who do have kids and have chosen to take the time to educate their children themselves.

I do not believe that they would make that investment if they did not think that it was producing a better education than the public school system in their area offered.

Most home schoolers I know enroll their kids in classes at the local schools beyond their expertise, let them participate in athletics, and join in extra-curricular events for socialization.

I am the product of a public school, and my education suffered greatly for it.

My children are in a public school, but it is an exceptional one, and we make small sacrifices to keep them there.

There is little that a parent can accomplish more significant than raising a healthy, well-adjusted, contributing member of our society. A good education is an important part of that, and I again applaud the parents who have chosen to spend the time to make that happen when their local educational options fail to meet their high standards.

TR

How is that a generalization? I have repeatedly said 'in my experience' to explicitly indicate that I am not referring to all home-schooled children. I certainly do not mean to be inflammatory by pointing out the fact that there are more points of view in a public school, but it is kind of hard to deny the math.

One of my best friends home-schools his children. His wife left her promising career as a Marine officer to take on the responsibility. He and I have had this conversation a number of times. It is just another challenge to the home schooling parent.

Generalization (admittedly a somewhat limited one)? Could I make that statement about a minority and the proclivities I have observed without offending someone?

A negative statement nonetheless, and implying limited learning.

A home schooling parent wants to teach their kids about Plato, Aristotle, Socrates, reasoning and logic, or philosophy can give them more in a day than the curriculum in public school will provide in 12 years.

TR

Isn't that what I said already? You trying to fight with me b/c you have a toothache? I didn't really put a Sacamuelas curse on you, you know that right? We actually only do that to patients that don't pay their bills. LOL ;)

I agree with you RL (or maybe you agree with me). Do my comments not read as having a similar understanding to what you wrote? If not, I am more tired than I thought.

If that was at Jimbo.. then by all means "pile on". It would be nice to see smeer the queer when I am not the one that is on the bad end of the 12 verses one team. You sympathetic Kurd worshipper! LOL

As long as we're on the subject of antiquity (somewhat.... TR did mention Plato and Aristotle in his last post), I heard a joke the other day while attending a lecture on homeland defense.

The person giving the lecture is a visiting professor at Rice, and told the story of a student and a professor in a Classical Studies course.

The professor looks at the student, and admonishes him, "Son, are you aware that by the time Alexander the Great was your age - twenty-two - he ruled half the world and had the other half in his sights?"

"Yes," answered the student, "are you aware that his professor was Aristotle?"

LOL, touche.

Since Jimbo tried to save me in the KURD thread, I have to make a little note.

TR, Sir. I see it as a "best of both worlds" opportunity to educate your children if you have parents as involved and dedicated to their child's growth as these home school parents are. It is an option to send your kids to high school and then when they get home educate them on the topics you find important. That way, they get an edge on all the other kids. You also have a chance with this time to critically evaluate and discuss with your child any PC or liberal slanted comments that a teacher exposes them too.

In the end, you would have the best of both worlds.

Again, I really do admire the people who make efforts to raise their children the way the see it best. That is far more admirable than someone who just bitches about the schools, but does nothing to change or alter their childs development. Well, that and BILL is the first person to teach me to sharpen a knife successfully so he must be one HELL of a teacher. LOL:D

Jimbo, you're feeling a little froggy tonight, so let me just go ahead and kick your ass.

Until you have a child, you know shit about children. I used to say "When I have mine, I'll do this, or be like that..." Well I'm here to tell you, you can have all the friends, relatives, whatever with kids, but until its yours, you don't know shit.

I don't know how old your are, but you're over 20, things have changed since you were in school. They've definitely changed since I was.

ALL children are home schooled. You may not remember it, but I'll bet my bottom dollar everything important you learned at home. I could read by the time I was four. I went to school to hang out and get the text books. I might of learned a little.

Nobody cares about a child like the child's parents. Not aunts or uncles, grandparents (close 2nd) and surely not even the best teachers in the world.

The people on this board are for the most part what I would consider to be model citizens. Not just role models for their children, but for the general public. I would let Reaper, Mr. Harsey, Cap, AM or the Team Sergeant teach my kid anytime. I thinks its admirable that they make the effort to ensure their kids grow up as contributing members of society. They have no conflicts of interests whatsoever. Unlike teachers.

I don't see where critical thinking is impaired at all. Who asks the questions is irrelevant. What the question is and how its asked is important. In your particular case, it may have been an issue, but to say it affects all or even most is an extreme over generalization.

The only, the absolute only potential issue I can see with homeschooling in general is the socialization factor. But it has been identified and addressed. As long as the parent is aware of it and acts, it ceases to be a problem.

I have two aunts and had a grandmother that were career teachers. Card carrying members of the NEA or whatever that communist cover organization is. I will not leave them alone in the room with my son for five minutes. Much less let them "teach" him anything.

I am the product of a public school education in a poor county in East Texas. I learned to fight, cheat steal and not get beat up after about the 5th grade. Everything else I learned from my mentors or own my own. There is absolutely nothing wrong with home school and there are no gneralizations, other than the parent cares enough to do it. Other than that it is up to teacher and student. Only in this case there's not 30 more competing for the same attention. And attention is what a child needs more than anything else. Attention and love they can't and shouldn't get from strangers. I only wish I could home school my son. Problem is, he's already smarter than I am.

There are people on this board that are homeschooling their children and no doubt doing a fine job of it. Since you are neither parent nor teacher, wind your neck in.

I've got a friend who is running a private school based on a home-school curriculum (from The Well Trained Mind). Their school, at www.aceschool.org, is doing phenomenally on the classical curriculum. The students have blown everyone away, and they are expanding under the pressure of increasing demand from fantastic word-of-mouth recommendations.

On a practical note, for anyone interested in home-schooling I recommend the above book and:

Left Back: A Century of Battles Over School Reform

Talk about a book that will help you understand what you're getting into IF YOU DO NOT home-school. At any rate, both excellent reads for those on both sides of the debate.

Well said, Kurd-oppressing reactionary imperialist running dog capitalist lackey. I'm starting to like you again.

Jimbo reminds me of that one kid that always wanted to poke the wasp's nest with the stick.

Something else I don't like about schools, especially elementary level. Too much anonymous pressure is put on kids to achieve such and such by a certain time. Kids develop at extremely different rates. To say that a child HAS to be able to read or add by a certain age is wrong to me. These should be guidelines, not have the stigma of failure attached. And I think in home school, you would get a more tailored to the child approach. The kid had a little trouble with potty training, but I wouldn't pressure him. Everybody said "Oh he's 2, you have to get him out of those diapers." I just ignored them. Well, he has a cousin a couple years older and everyday he listened to his cousin talk about school. So one day he tells me he wants to go to school.

"Well, you can't go wearing diapers, there's nobody to change them. You learn to go to the bathroom by yourself and I'll sign you up."

Potty trained in one day, his mother taught him, because he wanted to do it, not because somebody made him.

What happens in a school when you don't understand something? They make a cursory attempt to clarify, then move on. If you home school, you can spend all the time necessary on the subject until it is truly learned.

I would do it in a heartbeat if I could.

I too would homeschool if it was possible.

Since I can't, I spend alot of time talking with the teachers. In a classroom of 18, the teacher said only two other parents work with her. I'm dumbfounded by this remark. You can't expect a public school to raise your children, no more than you can expect a Sunday School teacher. You have to set the standards and lead from the front.

I couldn't agree more. When I'm home, I pick The Kid up from school myself. I go a little early and spy through the door glass, then sit out next to the sidewalk on a planter box where she has to pass right by me. And we talk. It may be only a minute, but its every day. It takes an hour out of my day, but the peace of mind is tremendous. Funny the things you can learn in a 60 second conversation.

Interesting topic, this home schooling. I was dead set against it at the begining but have done a 180 degree change. The socialization argument seems to be promoted heaviest by the teachers union members because it's the only ding they think they can make stick against "home schoolin' " My children swim at the top of a very competitive swim team, take classes away from home in physics and latin and have the oppurtinity to watch me and see if I'm worth a crap or not in this society. I, like Jimbo can only speak from my personal experience. Jimbo Sir, please understand I value the hard questions and wiil not shrink from them. What I absolutely will not allow is my children to be trained by failed liberal democratic members in our local teachers union who never knew how to succeed in independently owned business which to this day employs more people than all the corporations in the United States combined. This is the underlying and unseen fabric upon which this nation was both built and still depends. At no point in public education is this addressed or respected. I have had some success at combining multiple disciplines, involving a little critical thinking, into my work. Failure in this means no food or shelter because I work with no backup. It is said that it is best to lead by example and this hopefully is an important component of the home schooling in this house which is not available in our children in the local public schools. Interesting topic. Bill

Class. Class! CLASS! Questions?

This is my favorite part. "What I absolutely will not allow..." Sounds like Woodrow Call in Lonesome Dove.

Well said Sir.

Alright, hiijack time. Who has a story they can post in the new forum on AProfSoldier. Ambush master has two in there.. who's next?

Did you say froggy or groggy?

The more perspectives a student is exposed to the more able they must be to critically examine them and make an assessment. There are more perspectives available to a student in a public school than in their home. In the handful of home-schooled people I have known and worked with, their relatively narrow range of experinces has made a noticeable impact. That is all I am saying, folks. It is an honest observation. Sorry if that makes some people feel uncomfortable.

NDD, you are right, kids do progress at different rates, which lays open the possibility that a child will learn not only from their teachers and their parents but also from other students (both inside and outside the classroom).